PCGS problems with proof coins submitted. Help Please.
mintluster
Posts: 926
Hello all. I need some help/advice.
I have been a member of PCGS for a few years now and I love PCGS graded coins (who doesn't like a good return on their investment).
But recently (in the past 6 months) I have experienced problems with some proof coins submitted in several different orders.
I have had around 50 or more proof coins graded in this span of time (U.S. and foreign stuff) and MOST of them have been coming back from PCGS graded with tons of haze and sometimes fingerprints on them as well. The main problem is that they never look this way when I package them up and send them. Almost all of them I have sent in their original plastic air-tights that the proof commemoratives come in.
I received an order 2 weeks ago with 35 coins in it. Almost all of them were Canadian proofs and they were all beautiful white CAM or DCAM when I sent them and 3 months later when they arrived they were all fully hazed over, obverse and reverse. I was stunned and irritated at this point because it has happened before. So I emailed PCGS and asked for an explanation. I have heard nothing from them.
Now I got my latest order in the mail today and sure enough, same problem. 6 proofs. 5 completely hazed over. 2 with big nasty fingerprints on them. They are all modern and looked great when I sent them (comm. silver dollars: Lewis&Clark, Edison, etc.). But I had one 1982 Washington proof that came back as PR69DCAM and looks exactly the way it did when I sent it. No problems at all with this one. So I am irritated, angry, and also very puzzled.
Why is this happening on most of the proofs but not all of them?
And why am I finding FINGERPRINTS on my proofs which are DEFINATELY happening while my coins are in PCGS hands because I am the only one who packages them and I know I do not touch them like that, especially since I keep them in their original air-tights when I send them.
And finally, why will PCGS customer service not give me an explanation or attempt to assist me. WE are talking about over $1000 in grading fees. What is going on with the coins I am submitting? And this has been a more recent problem (last 6 months - never had this problem before then).
I am writing all of this not to start a smear campaign against PCGS but to see if anyone else out there has had similiar problems, and if you have, what did you do about it? Who did you talk to about it?
If you have not had these sort of problems, can you atleast give me some advice and let me know what you think I should do.
Thanks all.
I have been a member of PCGS for a few years now and I love PCGS graded coins (who doesn't like a good return on their investment).
But recently (in the past 6 months) I have experienced problems with some proof coins submitted in several different orders.
I have had around 50 or more proof coins graded in this span of time (U.S. and foreign stuff) and MOST of them have been coming back from PCGS graded with tons of haze and sometimes fingerprints on them as well. The main problem is that they never look this way when I package them up and send them. Almost all of them I have sent in their original plastic air-tights that the proof commemoratives come in.
I received an order 2 weeks ago with 35 coins in it. Almost all of them were Canadian proofs and they were all beautiful white CAM or DCAM when I sent them and 3 months later when they arrived they were all fully hazed over, obverse and reverse. I was stunned and irritated at this point because it has happened before. So I emailed PCGS and asked for an explanation. I have heard nothing from them.
Now I got my latest order in the mail today and sure enough, same problem. 6 proofs. 5 completely hazed over. 2 with big nasty fingerprints on them. They are all modern and looked great when I sent them (comm. silver dollars: Lewis&Clark, Edison, etc.). But I had one 1982 Washington proof that came back as PR69DCAM and looks exactly the way it did when I sent it. No problems at all with this one. So I am irritated, angry, and also very puzzled.
Why is this happening on most of the proofs but not all of them?
And why am I finding FINGERPRINTS on my proofs which are DEFINATELY happening while my coins are in PCGS hands because I am the only one who packages them and I know I do not touch them like that, especially since I keep them in their original air-tights when I send them.
And finally, why will PCGS customer service not give me an explanation or attempt to assist me. WE are talking about over $1000 in grading fees. What is going on with the coins I am submitting? And this has been a more recent problem (last 6 months - never had this problem before then).
I am writing all of this not to start a smear campaign against PCGS but to see if anyone else out there has had similiar problems, and if you have, what did you do about it? Who did you talk to about it?
If you have not had these sort of problems, can you atleast give me some advice and let me know what you think I should do.
Thanks all.
0
Comments
Ken
He might be willing to help you out. If not -- NGC can always assist you I'm sure.
Michael
I have had the exact same problem. I rarely ever submit moderns or proof coins, but had two shipments in that recently came back with the proof coins hazed over to death. They were two 1963 DCAM Franklins that were blast mirrors went they went in, but came back awful. David Hall told me to send them back and they would make them right, but I was able to blow them out at a local club auction vs wasting more time and money to ship them back, so I didnt. These were submitted in saflips still in the original mint cello. PCGS had to cut them out to grade.
Just recieved today, a 5 coin shipment with 1 of the coins hazed over. But whats intresting is that the only coin that is hazed is the one that went in still in the cello. All the other coins were broken out of proof sets that are not sealed in some type of cello.
I believe thier is something that you have to do to coins that are removed from cello, prior to slabbing, but I am not sure what it is. I beleive Russ can add some insight here about some type of neutralization???
jim d
mintluster,
When I first started, I had several submissions ruined with haze. It was the flips I was using. Let me repeat - it was the flips. They would haze even when put in the flip still in the original mint capsule. This is NOT a PCGS problem. Once I switched to SAFLIPS I haven't had a single coin come back with any haze.
<< <i>I believe thier is something that you have to do to coins that are removed from cello, prior to slabbing, but I am not sure what it is. I beleive Russ can add some insight here about some type of neutralization??? >>
I dip all silver proofs prior to submission to stabilize the surfaces and prevent spots or haze from developing. Not all will do so, but some that are untreated will turn to crap all by themselves after removal from the mint celo. Something else I learned the hard way.
Russ, NCNE
One thing that may be happening is this. Mintluster and Jdimmick both state they sent in original packaging. When these get to PCGS and are noted to not be in the mylar flips as PCGS requests, it means that someone must take the time to remove the coins from the airtight or the cello. Airtights would be especially difficult to remove while wearing gloves. I would bet this is being done by someone other than the graders in order to free up the graders to grade. The person doing the removal is using scissors and such and just opening packages and sending on to grade. When the coin comes in the flip the graders can simply slide the coin out into their (hopefully gloved) hand and proceed to grading.
just my opinion
<< <i>Airtights would be especially difficult to remove while wearing gloves. >>
Gloves are not worn at grading services.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I have sent in over 70 US proof coins from 54 to 64 in the last six months, along with a good many sms coins. I have never had a problem. I never send them to pcgs in their original packaging. I always take them out myself and put them in the little bags that PCGS sells and then put them into the hard flips. You might start by taking them out of the orignal holder yourself and looking at them closely. I have found lots of coins with problems, such as small dings and scratches, after I have cut them out. This was done at the US mint years ago, not at PCGS. I have never found any fingerprints though. This is probably being done in the process of taking them out of the holders, but who really knows. I just know that I dont have any problems with the proofs I send to PCGS. JMHO. >>
Thanks, I appreciate your feedback. As I said earlier, I never had this problem either, except for the last 6 months. I am not trying to smear PCGS here, I am asking to see if others have had similiar problems and what they did to remedy the situation. I am less concerned with people who have never had any problems (I am sure there are a lot in this boat) and more concerned with anyone who has had a similiar experience and can tell me about it. Just thought I would reply to you because it seems like you feel like I am smearing them so you are now defending them. This is not the case at all. I am still a PCGS member. Just questioning what is going on with my proof coins over the last few months. I did email them twice and have heard nothing back.
<< <i>Use ONLY ET Kointainer brand SAFLIPS when submitting proof coins - NEVER use anything else.
mintluster,
When I first started, I had several submissions ruined with haze. It was the flips I was using. Let me repeat - it was the flips. They would haze even when put in the flip still in the original mint capsule. This is NOT a PCGS problem. Once I switched to SAFLIPS I haven't had a single coin come back with any haze.
<< <i>I believe thier is something that you have to do to coins that are removed from cello, prior to slabbing, but I am not sure what it is. I beleive Russ can add some insight here about some type of neutralization??? >>
I dip all silver proofs prior to submission to stabilize the surfaces and prevent spots or haze from developing. Not all will do so, but some that are untreated will turn to crap all by themselves after removal from the mint celo. Something else I learned the hard way.
Russ, NCNE >>
Thank you so much. THIS IS EXACTLY THE SORT OF INFORMATION I AM LOOKING FOR. This could possibly be the problem then. Maybe it is the flips I have been using. It would be nice to hear this from PCGS but that is exactly why I posted here. I know there is a wealth of coin world knowledge on this webboard. Thank you.
<< <i>
<< <i>Airtights would be especially difficult to remove while wearing gloves. >>
Gloves are not worn at grading services.
Russ, NCNE >>
I have been learning this recently and it stuns me. I always assumed they used gloves of some kind, but I know now that is impossible because I have gotten some proofs sent back slabbed with fingerprints on them. Big ones too, like thumb prints. Some coins had multiple prints on them.
I dip all silver proofs prior to submission to stabilize the surfaces and prevent spots or haze from developing. Not all will do so, but some that are untreated will turn to crap all by themselves after removal from the mint celo. Something else I learned the hard way.
What are you dipping them in. Thiourea or acetone or something else?
That coin was pristine when submitted. I had entire submissions come back like that. Since I switched to SAFLIPS, all has been well. I also do NOT use polybags. Some that are on the market contain contaminants that can also haze coins. One more thing I learned the hard way.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Here's an example of what was happening to my coins early on:
That coin was pristine when submitted. I had entire submissions come back like that. Since I switched to SAFLIPS, all has been well. I also do NOT use polybags. Some that are on the market contain contaminants that can also haze coins. One more thing I learned the hard way.
Russ, NCNE >>
This is EXACTLY what my proofs look like. Entire orders have looked like this.
Jerry
<< <i>And why am I finding FINGERPRINTS on my proofs which are DEFINATELY happening while my coins are in PCGS hands because I am the only one who packages them and I know I do not touch them like that, especially since I keep them in their original air-tights when I send them. >>
But what about the fingerprints?????? Certainly they weren't caused by the flips/polybags.
Michael
<< <i>But what about the fingerprints?????? Certainly they weren't caused by the flips/polybags. >>
That may also very well be related to the flips. A print can be on a coin for quite some time and not necessarily be readily visible. The hazing of the surfaces can cause the print to emerge. Plenty of coins have been known to have prints directly out of the mint packaging.
Russ, NCNE
Michael
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JDRF Donation
What are the SAFlips made of?? They aren't PVC, are they?
I believe they are mylar.
<< <i>Gloves are not worn at grading services.
Because your grip is much, much worse with gloves on. There is a much greater risk of a coin slipping out of a gloved hand than a trained, ungloved hand fingerprinting a coin. Case in point. At the Smithsonian, when putting coins away, we did not wear gloves (they wore gloves in the exhibit because the coins were being taken off the wall, and thus were more prone to being printed, by anyone's hands). When the two 1933 $20 were being viewed, gloves weren't worn--no one fingerprinted either, and no one dropped them, either (gold in an air conditioned room is cold
Jeremy
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
If the cellophane is airtight and oxygen is a required ingredient for the prints to show, then it's logical that the process wouldn't get too far until the coins were cut out of the original mint packaging.
<< <i>Russ, the world is waiting to hear what you dip the proofs in before sending them in for grading. >>
Hey All, could it be "Metal Safe Corrosion Inhibitor"? Information on the Saflip and this "Dip" can be found at http://www.kelgory.com/saflips.html
Hope I'm right and that this helps!!!!
<< <i>If the cellophane is airtight >>
PCGS slabs aren't airtight how could mint cellophane or plastic be airtight -- look @ Don's pic.
Michael
Don't know if the cellophane is or isn't - but if it is then there's a logical possible reason for the prints lying dormant for an extended period of time. Isn't that what you asked for in your previous post when you said "However, why would a print lay invisible for so many years only to appear after the coin was slabbed?"
Obviously the plastic cases are not.
<< <i>PCGS slabs aren't airtight how could mint cellophane or plastic be airtight -- look @ Don's pic. >>
I don't know if the mint celo is airtight, but I do know I've had plenty of proof coins develop problems, including fingerprints after removal from the packaging. Yes, PCGS has fingerprinted some coins, (although it hasn't happened to any of mine for over 18 months), but you can't pin them all on them.
Russ, NCNE
I'm about to start pulling them anyway for certification, so I'll try to remember to give everyone feedback on any "problems" which may have developed while they have been waiting inside of Saflips.
They went straight into the Saflips, BTW. If there was any stray lint on the coins surface they were brushed first with my trusty camel hair brush and then placed into the mylar flip.
*******************************************************************************
Maybe the haze and fingerprints came from an alien abduction!!
I can understand the idea that the use of gloves makes the dropping of a coin more likely so they are not use to handle a coin.
But isn't the original posting claiming that some of his submissions are modern proofs that the mint claims has been handled with gloves? But since every knowledgable numismatic person knows that you only handle coins by the edges. So what's the excuse for finding a big thumb in the MIDDLE of a PROOF coin (or are we NOT seeing that)?
<< <i>PCGS slabs aren't airtight how could mint cellophane or plastic be airtight -- >>
It depends on whether you are talking about the physical seal of the two halves of the slab or cello package OR the permeability of the cello or slab material to contaminants once a pyhsical seal has been achieved. If it was possible [with no extra effort] to produce a 100% seal between the two halves of a slab I'm sure that PCGS would probably be doing that. I think it might be safe to assume that a Mint sealed cello pack of coins is [in most cases] 100% sealed around each coin, so any contamination would have to pass through the cellophane itself.
<< <i>-- look @ Don's pic. >>
The Mint cello is probably airtight but the mint plastic is not. The coins in Don's pic are NOT in Mint sealed cellophane.
Once the coin is removed it's a crap shoot as to what might happen.
The surface of the coin is not stable. Add a little moisture from the air and who knows.
Stick it in a flip and a box and ship it in the heat of the summer and something is going to happen.
Cello offers very little protection. Just the way I view the problem.
<< <i>Many gases can pass thru a slab or cello to the surface of the coin. >>
Kind of a bold statement don't you think? If that was true then water vaopr and oxygen would pass through the cello and the coins would be hazy in no time atall. Your comment seems to be contradicted by some previous posts to this thread.
<< <i>
<< <i>Many gases can pass thru a slab or cello to the surface of the coin. >>
Kind of a bold statement don't you think? If that was true then water vaopr and oxygen would pass through the cello and the coins would be hazy in no time atall. Your comment seems to be contradicted by some previous posts to this thread. >>
Not sure who I contradicted but the transfer rate of different gases is an important factor.
Once a coin is broken out, moisture and oxygen will circulate and react more freely with the surface of the coin.
To me it all boils down to the fact that the surface of the coin is not stable in most cases.
What to do about that is another topic.
<<"However, why would a print lay invisible for so many years only to appear after the coin was slabbed
If the cellophane is airtight and oxygen is a required ingredient for the prints to show, then it's logical that the process wouldn't get too far until the coins were cut out of the original mint packaging.">>
And I would say this one is contradictory too and knowing the gent who made the statment I would imagine he has freed up smoe coins that have been entombed in cello for a long time!!
I don't know if the mint celo is airtight, but I do know I've had plenty of proof coins develop problems, including fingerprints after removal from the packaging. Yes, PCGS has fingerprinted some coins, (although it hasn't happened to any of mine for over 18 months), but you can't pin them all on them.
Russ, NCNE
Sorry my post was not clear.
Nothing I posted was a contradiction to the other members.
It actually falls right in line with their statements.
Please read my post again.
<< <i>Here's an example of what was happening to my coins early on:
That coin was pristine when submitted. I had entire submissions come back like that. Since I switched to SAFLIPS, all has been well. I also do NOT use polybags. Some that are on the market contain contaminants that can also haze coins. One more thing I learned the hard way.
Russ, NCNE >>
I had that happen to an AH too - Thanks for the tip - Saflips it is!