For Bust Half collectors NGC has a great deal to offer
GOLDSAINT
Posts: 2,148 ✭
NGC really has a lot to offer to the Bust Half collector. Not only will they allow both their own slabs and those of PCGS in their registries, but their computer system is so advanced now, that any Registry changes in NGC or PCGS coins takes only seconds.
In addition their POP report breaks down all Bust Half coins by Overton numbers so you can see an exact listing of exactly the variety you are looking for.
Here is a good example on an 1827 O-137 R6. This coin was made from rusty dies and is estimated to have only 13 to 30 coins surviving. If you were trying to find POP on this coin on PCGS here is what you would find.
PCGS No Date Den Variety VG-VF40 45 50 53 55 58 60
6144 1827 50C Square 2 55 36 61 75 60 134 141 22 33 67 87 58 7 2 1 0 839
At NGC here is what you would find,
Year/ Mint Den Variety Desig Total PrAG G VG F VF 40 45 55
1827 SQUARE 2 50C O-137 MS2 1 1
The cells are a little hard to copy but you can see the difference. NGC has slabbed only 2 of these coins one in VF and one in AU, and PCGS who can tell out of the 839 they have listed. PCGS appears to set up their POP report on what might be included in their registry sets, and NGC sets their POP report for all specialists collectors in this area.
Unfortunately if you are looking for very Rare Bust half types there is no way to tell how many 1827 O-137 coins PCGS has slabbed.
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And even at NGC, you have to pay extra to get the Overton numbers on the slab... so how many 1827 O-137's are there in unattributed NGC slabs?
And another thing, the JRCS Society census reports are probally much much much more accurate than any TPGs pop-reports... and you will quickly find out, that the REALLY serious Bust collectors, for any denomination, tend to be anti-plastic, they like to view the coin without distractions, and even to study the 3rd side. Russ Logan was big on the 3rd side, and he cracked every slabbed Bust coin in his collection out when he bought it...
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K S
Oh Goodie an argument,
“it's simply that PCGS doesn't attribute every single little variety in every single field...”
That’s right they don’t , Why not ? It’s a few hours work on the computer, and a matter of buying an Overton Book.
“then their Registry is based on the coins they attribute, not the other way around...”
I think most large auction houses the PNG and ANA would all agree that after nearly 20 years of Grading that these two fine companies can now be treated equally.
“so how many 1827 O-137's are there in unattributed NGC”
according to Mr. Overton there will not be more than 27. Mine is in a PCI holder, and they have 2 listed.
“JRCS Society census reports are probally much much much more accurate than any TPGs pop-reports...”
This is true of JRCS as well as BHNC but their census reports include ALL coins, and not certified coins. So I would assume that every worn-out, scratched, PVC etc.etc. coins are on those reports. This is an area that goes to the investment side, as well as the quality side of collecting. There is nothing wrong with collecting damaged coins, in particular if you are never interested in the investment side.
“the REALLY serious Bust collectors, for any denomination, tend to be anti-plastic, they like to view the coin without distractions, and even to study the 3rd side. Russ Logan was big on the 3rd side, and he cracked every slabbed Bust coin in his collection out when he bought it...”
This statement is just an unfounded, ridiculous statement.
First the finest know, highest graded sets in the country are in large percentage slabbed.
Second Russ Logan, who I never heard of, but I am sure is a Big Bust Half collector, can do what he likes in his own collection.
There are people here that collect the lowest grades they can, people that only collect colored coins, people that collect only XF/ AU, and though I am sure MR. Logan has some following, PCGS, NGC, PNG,ANA all major auction houses etc.etc. do not share his views.
Karl,
“hey goldsaint, don't lose sight of your bhnc membership! i really encourage you to go after it!!!”
I am working on it and, perhaps in 6 months.
<< <i>That’s right they don’t , Why not ? It’s a few hours work on the computer, and a matter of buying an Overton Book. >>
There's the key reason why they don't do attributions of the sort... A FEW HOURS WORK... how much time do the graders currently spend per coin?
<< <i>This is true of JRCS as well as BHNC but their census reports include ALL coins, and not certified coins. So I would assume that every worn-out, scratched, PVC etc.etc. coins are on those reports. This is an area that goes to the investment side, as well as the quality side of collecting. There is nothing wrong with collecting damaged coins, in particular if you are never interested in the investment side. >>
I honestly don't see your point here... you admit that their census reports are more accruate than the TPGs... and then you go off on investment... how many specialists collect for investment purposes?? Situation: You are only a couple die marriages away from a complete set (Not counting unique die marriages) and an R7 with 6 known pieces comes up for auction. It's a scratched, beat up cleaned worn down coin, but, you know that the other 5 known examples are being held in very strong hands... what are you gonna do?
<< <i>This statement is just an unfounded, ridiculous statement.
First the finest know, highest graded sets in the country are in large percentage slabbed. >>
Most almost every Bust specialist I have met, has preferred their sets raw... maybe it's just that it's been the people that I have met have been this way, and there are plenty of people out there that have their sets certfieid, but I really don't think so...
<< <i>Second Russ Logan, who I never heard of, but I am sure is a Big Bust Half collector, can do what he likes in his own collection. >>
Russ Logan was considered the leading expert on Capped Bust Half-Dimes, and was also an expert of Capped Bust Dimes... he co-wrote the leading reference book on Federal Half-Dimes and was also a writer for the reference book for the Federal Dime Book... he (I believe) is the only person to own a complete die marriage set of Capped Bust Half-Dimes, which was sold at auction after he died, except for 2 remarriages... this included the finest known example of the only R8 Die Marriage in the CBHD series. In the Federal Half-Dime book, Russ Logan and John McCloskey went as far as to identify the different die collars used in the striking of the CBHDs... right down to the number of reeds, type of reeding and even the range of diameters for coins struck in those collars. I am curious though, did Overton and the other writers for the references on other Bust denominations do this for the closed collar struck coins?
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Be sure to get a copy of "Auction and Mail Bid Prices Realized for Bust Half Dollars" from Sheridan Downey's website. This excellent tool will allow you to see most of the sales of the major rarities for the last 15 years. For 1827 O.137 R.6, there is about a dozen sales from VG10 @ $5390 to MS61 @ $18865. The recent sale of a PCGS AU55 1827 O.137 realized $18882. Keep in mind that price realized data is for the price paid, not the price the winning bidder was willing to pay. Sheridan Downey shows the overbid in his PR data, the overbid hammer for the O.137 was $21100, which means you would have had to pay $23211, with juice, to win the coin, even though the winner paid $18882, with juice.
The bottom line is you must bid well over price realized data for rarities if you really want the coin.
Nearly all bust collections in collector grades VG-XF are raw, with more of the AU-MS collections now in slabs. My only problems with TPG is their refusal to design a slab to see the edge, and the gradeflation that has occured in the last 12 years (all bust experts will concur with this). The TPG attribution takes considerable time and talent to do it accurately and consistently, unfortunately PCGS does not offer attribution service, while NGC and ANACS will attribute coins.
George - The Overton book does not give emission sequence, and the Overton numbers do not match the emission sequence. The emission sequence for capped bust halves can be found in the ANS book "America's Silver Coinage 1794-1891" from the 1986 conference. It is still available from the ANS, and is the best $12 I ever spent. There is also, as I remember, an article by McCloskey on half dime discoveries, and by Logan on edge mirror design. The half dollar emissions are determined by edge die state links. The Overton 3rd is sold out, and a 4th edition is in the works.
JrGM,
Gee man, I don’t know how this got so twisted up? I don’t know anything about DIMES.
In addition, the FEW HOURS I was talking about was computer set up time, and NOT grading. I would assume that if PCGS started looking up these Bust halves they would charge for their time, as you have said that NGC does.
“I honestly don't see your point here... you admit that their census reports are more accurate than the TPGs... “
What I think is important about the TPGs listings is that it gives the collector an extra added rarity factor of what can be certified in this series. Nysoto could tell us better than I, but what I find is that only about one in ten Bust halves will certify without a net grade. If you look at the Bust half set being put together by TAHOE DALE this is a monumental task. His set of certified coins is 70%, unbelievable. I kid him about this being a function of dollars, but all kidding aside building a set of certified Bust halves adds a whole different dimension to your search, particular in R4 to R8 coins.
I do agree with one of your points though, in the case of many R6 to R8 coins you just take what you can get, as you might never see another one.
“and then you go off on investment... how many specialists collect for investment purposes??”
ALL of the Bust Half specialists I know are concerned with the investment side. The Tidewell collection that just sold contained about 450 coins, as I understand, the collection was sold so that these folks could retire and buy their dream home. Were they concerned about the investment side of their collection, absolutely.
“ Most almost every Bust specialist I have met, has preferred their sets raw...”
Are you a Bust half specialist?
“Be sure to get a copy of "Auction and Mail Bid Prices Realized for Bust Half Dollars" from Sheridan Downey's website.”
Nysoto Thanks, I will do that.
JrG is correct about bust specialists. They dislike slabs as a means of maintaining a collection. Most coins come out immediately. When they do circulate back into the marketplace, somebody puts them back into plastic and up goes the pops. This is okay for generic stuff, but a disaster for anyone using the PRs as a rarity guide for the attributed varieties. This is particularly so for the R4s and scarcer.
I have no problem with slabs and I will not buy raw coins via mailorder, except for a few dealers I trust. I do crack most of mine out to put in an album. The pop reports are a trifle that annoy me only slightly. The registries are abominations that pander to the basest egos in the hobby, IMO.
The irony of the Bust Half Dollar registry is that most of the collections entered will be among the worst of the collections extant, because the best collections are either busted, never TPGed, or not entered. The fact that TAHOE DALE has seventy percent of the marriages in the registry is meaningless, because he could be outdone by a number of collectors shipping their 95% complete, high-grade collections in for slabbing.
Nysoto claimed that the high-end collections are going more and more into slabs. This is true, but I don't see it as much a preferece for slabs per-se as it is a nod to the financial aspects of the hobby. Why should a collector crack out his slider half in a MS63 holder? I sure wouldn't. Yes, that is a slam on the TPGs ability to properly grade bust coins.
He, Nysoto, is 100% correct about the edge-viewable holder. That would be a major draw to the slabs for die pair collectors. A greater one would be the adoption of a EAC-type grading standard by the Big Two (Yes, I'm dreaming.) Perhaps then PRs will someday be worthwile for the varieties, but not now.
OTOH, why care about them if the much superior BHNC census is available?
"Russ Logan, who I never heard of" is a serving of Grade-A Prime ex facie that JrG's admittedly limited knowledge of the liretature already transcends your own. I can't imagine how a collector of bust coins doesn't know the name Russ Logan. You can "Oh goodie" all you want, but on that point he's handed you back your derriere. I know how tempting it is to trash a newbie, especially one as exuberant (perhapes over-exuberant at times) as he is. But, is there any need to revel in the trashing? Give him a break, he's becoming a fine collector.
Junior, relaaaxxxxxx. There's no point in arguing about slabs. It's like religion, politics, and ultra-grade moderns! You know what they say about opinions, don't you?
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<< <i>“ Most almost every bust specialist I have met, has preferred their sets raw...”
Are you a bust half specialist? >>
I am not a Bust Half specialist, but I am a Bust Half-Dime specialist. And I certainly prefer my set raw, so I can examine the whole coin, all 3 sides, and see the rims... one of the problems with NGC and ANACS slabs, is that it will sometimes hide the rims from view.
<< <i>Nearly all bust collections in collector grades VG-XF are raw, with more of the AU-MS collections now in slabs. My only problems with TPG is their refusal to design a slab to see the edge, and the gradeflation that has occured in the last 12 years (all bust experts will concur with this). The TPG attribution takes considerable time and talent to do it accurately and consistently, unfortunately PCGS does not offer attribution service, while NGC and ANACS will attribute coins. >>
Nysoto has good points here. And I think the gradeflation is a big reason why many bust experts are distrustful of TPGs, and prefer their sets raw...
Back to the investment potential... yes, there is of course a potential with any set to make money on it... but do you really think that the Tidewell collection was started as a retirement fund? Yes, it may have been sold so they could retire, but I doubt it was the reason for starting the set, and completing it, in the first place.
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And just another side-note... If I was going to be getting my coins into slabs simply for protection and attribution, I would be sending them to ANACS. It's cheaper over there, and as long as you attribute it first, they don't charge you extra to notate the marriage. But, at NGC, it will cost you an extra $7 per to put the marriage on the label.
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Can somebody who's been around for a lot longer than I please talk more about the "gradeflation" that has occured with bust halves, or bust coins in general?
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As for bust half specialists--and although George isn't, I am--I don't know of more than a couple of die marriage collections in the country that are primarily slabbed. Individuals may have a few--maybe even several--individual coins in slabs because they were bought that way, but most of the collection will be raw.
Jim
" I know how tempting it is to trash a newbie, especially one as exuberant (perhapes over-exuberant at times) as he is. But, is there any need to revel in the trashing? Give him a break, he's becoming a fine collector."
Uncleb,
Well Sir,
I guess the joke is on me, not only did I not know that Russ Logan was the greatest Bust Half Dollar collector of all time, I did not know I was having this argument with a child called Jrgman. I never figured a guy with 5700 posts, that has been on here since 2003, with a Bust logo, was a Kid!
Thanks for your help.
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Ha Ha Ha ,
Listen dear boy , I am 58 and my sons are thirty something. No disrespect intended about your knowledge, but any one 18 is a kid to me.
Next I am going to find out that Uncleb is your 20 year old uncle.
“As for bust half specialists--and although George isn't, I am--I don't know of more than a couple of die marriage collections in the country that are primarily slabbed.”
Jim,
I can certainly understand why most of the serious collectors in this area are collecting Raw material, as you may remember from past posts I have had dozens of Bust halves body bagged. Not that I do still not enjoy these coins and I have not sold any of them, but I do think it is an extra challenge for me personally to search out as many coins as possible that can be certified.
As far as Uncleb’s comment on Tahoe Dale’s set,
“ The fact that TAHOE DALE has seventy percent of the marriages in the registry is meaningless, because he could be outdone by a number of collectors shipping their 95% complete, high-grade collections in for slabbing.”
I don’t think he has looked at the numbers on this set, which both PCGS and NGC call this finest set ever assembled.
Does anyone really know of any Bust Half dollar set that is better than this set?
Jim
<< <i>Yes, at least 1.
Jim >>
Can you share some details Jim?
I have a feeling PCGS and NGC actual wording is probally a little more like "The finest certified set ever assembled." And if it's only 70% complete, when there's more sets out there that are more complete.......
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Jim
<< <i>I am certainly not a kid. >>
Well, let's not go overboard, Kid.
<< <i>I am 58 and my sons are thirty something. No disrespect intended about your knowledge, but any one 18 is a kid to me. Next I am going to find out that Uncleb is your 20 year old uncle. >>
Oh, only that it was so, to be 20 again. Granted, my 37 years can't match your 58, but I have no sons and the coins are MINE MINE MINE.
<< <i>I don’t think he has looked at the numbers on this set, which both PCGS and NGC call this finest set ever assembled. >>
<< <i>I am quite familiar with one set I think is nicer.
Smooth, so smooth.
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Bust Coin Forum
I've never collected busties, and even I knew the Logan catalog was one of the most important bust references out there.
It seems incredible to me that one can speak with such authority on a series and not know of the most recent research/reference publication on said subject.
Despite assertions that Mr. Logan was not a "specialist" on said series, he had an incredible collection of the stuff. The CBH portion of his collection was amazingly near 100% of known die marriages, and included some really cool proofs and that pattern that I think was made of platinum. For a collection of that size and completeness, the vast bulk of his material was at worst minimally problematic. I.e., they should slab by the majors.
As a numismatic reference, the collection dwarfs that of Queller and Price. (Of course, Stack's nevertheless put out excellent numismatic reference catalogs for those collections.)
GOLDSAINT - I think I know what you're trying to say: that NGC's attribution service is very useful. But, that should be all that needs to be said. It's not the be-all-end-all service, and it is absolutely true that a huge %-age of Bust collectors prefer their coins raw.
Not too long ago, we handled a collection of CBH's from a long-time customer. The coins were very nice. All eye appealing, lustrous, etc. And, all raw. When it came time to sell, of course we had them slabbed for our customer. Bottom line: just because a CB set is sold slabbed doesn't mean that it was held that way by the collector.
Regards,
EVP
[Edited to add that I just remembered that Logan came before Queller; still, I think the Logan catalog is the best I've seen to date.]
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I've never collected busties, and even I knew the Logan catalog was one of the most important bust references out there.”
“I'm with Coinosaurus on this...
Coinosaurus and EVP, Please help me out here and send me a link to the info. on this Site, Book, catalog, on these Bust halves.
“It seems incredible to me that one can speak with such authority on a series”
EVP,
I am not sure whom you are talking about here.
Did you read these posts?
If you are referring to me I never claimed to be an authority, or even a specialist, If you read my reply to Karl I don’t even have the hundred coins to get in the BHNC.
As far as the “most recent research/reference publication on said subject.”
Please post the info., as I would love to have it.
EVP,
Don’t you think these two statements are just a little strange?
“and it is absolutely true that a huge %-age of Bust collectors prefer their coins raw.”
“Not too long ago, we handled a collection of CBH's from a long-time customer. The coins were very nice. All eye appealing, lustrous, etc. And, all raw. When it came time to sell, of course we had them slabbed for our customer.”
Everyone here seems to be opposed to slabbing these coins, everyone here says that most Bust halve collectors collect RAW material. Several here say that the finest collections are RAW.
So why in the world do you, and all the major auction houses slab all these coins?
The guts of my contentions here are these,
“NGC really has a lot to offer to the Bust Half collector. Not only will they allow both their own slabs and those of PCGS in their registries”
“In addition their POP report breaks down all Bust Half coins by Overton numbers so you can see an exact listing of exactly the variety you are looking for.”
“I do think it is an extra challenge for me personally to search out as many coins as possible that can be certified.”
If I can get an honest answer here, I would be very interested to know of any collections of over 100 Bust halves that were collected RAW, and then were submitted to be certified, and what percentage were Body Bagged.
As far as my comment on Dales set, I seem to recall him telling me that he had ALL of the Redbook Bust half listings, and what is listed in his set on NGC and PCGS are only the coins that would certify, but I will email him and ask again.
It is still my contention that investment plays an important part in Bust half collectors decisions, and it is still my contention that collecting certified coins is a much greater challenge than collecting RAW.
<< <i>that pattern that I think was made of platinum. >>
A 1819 if memory serves, and it sold for A LOT of money! But it was a pretty cool coin... it was punched several dozen times with a "P" punch. It also had a "P" engraved in in script on the reverse.
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1814 Capped Bust Half Dollar O-107, Pollock-48, Judd-44. Rarity-8. Platinum pattern.
When I did a search on Mr. Logan this morning I did find a Bowers and Merena Sale of 609 Raw Bust halves in November of 2002. In that sale was a 1814 Platinum pattern in AU that sold for $50,600, and yes it is a very cool coin.
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<< <i>JrGM, 1814 Capped Bust Half Dollar O-107, Pollock-48, Judd-44. Rarity-8. Platinum pattern. When I did a search on Mr. Logan this morning I did find a Bowers and Merena Sale of 609 Raw Bust halves in November of 2002. In that sale was a 1814 Platinum pattern in AU that sold for $50,600, and yes it is a very cool coin. >>
And, because this coin was unslabbed, I had an oportuninty to hold this coin with my bare hands. I remember swirling it around in the light and wondering why it took 33 strikes of the P-stamp and the word "Platina" to effectively mark this coin.
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