Greysheet is losing credibility FAST.
coynclecter
Posts: 2,111
Here's a quote from todays CDN greysheet.
<< <i>Type is still among the leading areas of the overall rare coin marketplace. Just about anything that is problem free and pleasing for the grade is in demand. >>
Then you go the Uncirculated Type Coins listed in MS63, 64 and 65. Of the over 600 Bid and ask prices listed there are 8 plus signs. There were no plus signs in the Gd through MS60 categories for all type and only about 10 for all proof type. A total of 2 plus signs for all Mercury and Walkers in all unc grades combined.
These guys had better hire some staff and start following the market. Having a monopoly must be making them lazy.
Has anyone seen a lot more coins than that rise in price lately or is it just me.
<< <i>Type is still among the leading areas of the overall rare coin marketplace. Just about anything that is problem free and pleasing for the grade is in demand. >>
Then you go the Uncirculated Type Coins listed in MS63, 64 and 65. Of the over 600 Bid and ask prices listed there are 8 plus signs. There were no plus signs in the Gd through MS60 categories for all type and only about 10 for all proof type. A total of 2 plus signs for all Mercury and Walkers in all unc grades combined.
These guys had better hire some staff and start following the market. Having a monopoly must be making them lazy.
Has anyone seen a lot more coins than that rise in price lately or is it just me.
0
Comments
On the other hand, they absolutely are the source for prices on INS coins!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i><< Type is still among the leading areas of the overall rare coin marketplace. Just about anything that is problem free and pleasing for the grade is in demand. >>
Then you go the Uncirculated Type Coins listed in MS63, 64 and 65. Of the over 600 Bid and ask prices listed there are 8 plus signs. There were no plus signs in the Gd through MS60 categories for all type and only about 10 for all proof type. A total of 2 plus signs for all Mercury and Walkers in all unc grades combined. >>
Coynclecter, I don't think the quote from CDN was necessarily inconsistent with the fact that there were very few plus signs. I believe that something can be "in demand" without the price having to rise. If the demand increases, eventually the price should rise, though.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
K S
<< <i>isn't the greysheet for dealers? are you a dealer? >>
NO, but everytime I went to buy or sell a coin at a show the dealer would pull out the greysheet. It didn't take long before I decided to get one myself If I wanted to know what to expect.
.
The reason you might not see plus signs may be because dealers haven't reported higher trading prices.
Thanksgiving National Battlefield Coin Show is November 29-30, 2024 at the Eisenhower Allstar Sportsplex, Gettysburg, PA. Tables are available. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
<< <i>Greysheet is losing credibility FAST >>
Lost it on KEY dates a while back.
Check out the latest prices on the 1904-S in AU thru high end MS.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
K S
<< <i>if the greysheet is targeted at dealers, maybe collectors shouldn't be messing w/ it. >>
I agree for the most part, but these days, it seems like the line between collector and dealer is blurring. In the age of online coin dealing, a lot of collectors are becoming part-time dealers and such.
<< <i>Despite the hype, the market is not rising. >>
Then why are coins getting so expensive to buy? Just about everything in my areas of interest are more expensive than they were last year, and last year they were higher than the year before.
Try buying a PQ key or even a semi-key date at GS ask and you will be doing well even as a dealer!
When dealers are paying aver greysheet ask for these coins what should a collector (retail customer) going to pay?
In some cases you can't buy a PQ dollar at full trend or the price guide and that's for dealer to dealer transactions.
Greysheets are dealer to dealer and are a good guide for the knowledgeable collector and in some cases novice collectors. No one should pay $200.00 for an 1881-s morgan in MS63 as an example.
<< <i>The greysheet are dealer to dealer guide lines! >>
bingo. i don't see how someone who's not a dealer thinks he's qualified to interpret a dealers-only publication.
K S
The grey sheet reports highest bids. A bit different, especially in this market. Kieth Zaner has a lot to keep up with. He only monitors the bid systems (CoinNet, CCE, Eureka) If dealers don't bid, the prices don't change. When business is busy many don't have time to update bids. Also, higher bids don't nesessaryily bring you more coins. You have to find them first and pay up if needed to get them. 1877 Indians for example are way undervalued in the greysheet. The bid for a MS65RB is $6,400. I bought two beautiful examples at Pittsburgh for $10,000 and $12,500 and sold both there for $13,500 each. Any decent 1877 under $9,000 in 65RB is a bargain.
Coin Values by Coin World is getting pretty acurate thanks to hard work by Mark Furgeson. He's always asking questions at shows and is committed to reporting an accurate market.
<< <i>
<< <i>The greysheet are dealer to dealer guide lines! >>
bingo. i don't see how someone who's not a dealer thinks he's qualified to interpret a dealers-only publication.
K S >>
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>I've never understood when price guides, magazines and other 'insiders' say that this coin or tha coin is hot and the price movement doesn't support the claim. On what do they base their assertions, if the prices aren't rising at a higher than normal rate? >>
It can simply be that these are coins the dealers are able to sell almost as soon as they acquire them. That doesn't require that prices rise, though with the right market conditions that can be the case, particularly if the item is on the want list of several of your customers.
I agree. In the areas where I specialize [1836-1885 dollars], Coin World Trends is now pretty up to date - much more so than Greysheet.
<< <i><< The greysheet are dealer to dealer guide lines! >> >>
<< <i>bingo. i don't see how someone who's not a dealer thinks he's qualified to interpret a dealers-only publication. >>
So I need a degree from "dealers" school to learn what "bid and ask" mean? I would hope 20 years of collecting would provide enough knowledge for me to understand what coin they are talking about and "bid and ask" are terms used in a lot of businesses other than coins.
I try to take advantage of all information that is out there and learn how to interpret it. When a date has a $300 ask, all those at auction sold over 500 and I can't find one under 600, I'd sure like to know who's doing the "asking"
So Dork, what do you use as a guide when you buy/sell to at least be sure you are in the ballpark? Trends? The PCGS guide?? Do you pay Redbook prices?? Do you just pay what the seller wants for any coin you like? What do you ask when you decide to sell?
(of course, i always try to negotiate, it never hurts to ask "what's the best you can do on this")
really, if your collecting coins for enjoyment, it just doesn't pay dividends to get all tied up in knots about "price" & "grade". much better for you if you focus your efforts on being honest w/ yourself, learning what YOU LIKE, & abiding by that. that will get you much farther along then worrying about dealer "bids", whatever.
worry about what YOU like. THAT is what matters!!!
K S
<< <i>I try to take advantage of all information that is out there and learn how to interpret it. >>
1 more thing, this quote kind of scares me. the problem i think your having is too much information. it's like trying to listen to 6 songs on 6 different radios simultaneously, it just become confusing noise. again, when you learn to focus on what YOU LIKE, 99% of the "noise" goes away.
trust me on this!
K S
while I believe Mark's done a great job in my area of interest (Merc dimes) I've seen absolutely no value changes in over 2 years in the ENTIRE SERIES which is sad and pathetic. I am sure this holds true to many other series too. Not sure what to make of that at all.
Of course same generaly hold rtue for grey sheet and all - most pricing is great for dealer to dealer or buy only or typical low end graded stuff etc.
Marc
trust me on this!"
Whoa! I agree....
Mike
Sometimes it takes a little longer but the more information I have the better and when I can get 150 pages on the security configuration of a single obscure network device I can hardly consider 8 pages as being too much information on the exchange of a million or so coins a month.
I like coins and I try not to get too bogged down in the $ and cents but if you're out buying (or selling) 5-20 Mint State coins a month and you're just paying what "feels" right, you must have more money to burn than I do.
One point that I'd like to add is that the availibility of a given coin should be a consideration to the price as well. I recently review the pops for MS67 30's and 40's Lincolns (my area) and was shocked to see the dramatic rise in the numbers. This exercise help me to see why the prices for these coins are quite depressed now.
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
In this dialogue, I am proposing karldork is talking more “collecting” side and CoynClecter talking more “investing” side. They are arguing in either/or fallacy so will never get past apples and oranges, or …. karldork is just ‘stirring the pot.’ Some might like the coin market to more like a Walmart or other retail store...
A coin [or anything for that matter] is worth what the next person will pay for it, no matter what any book says. They are guidelines—hopefully reporting accurately/truthfully what the coins are actually selling for historically-- but the bias is everyone (buyer/seller) wants to make money when they sell & have nice coins that go up in value while they hold them. So objectivity is often left behind for greed and covetousness.
Fast..... ??? I havent used a greysheet to find accurate pricing on a coin in about two years.
David
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Who came up with THE official US gallon and where does 'it' reside for comparison purposes? or the yard, meter, ounce, etc.?
A legit 65 is closer to $15-20K than it is to $10K. How about an 1849 25c in MS64 for $2200? $2200 might get you a real nice 63.
I too have noticed for the past 2 years how CDN will pick out one or two type coins from the list to "+" them or "-" them. It makes no sense. The type market is moving as a whole, yet they'll single out say a PF64 barber quarter to minus and then plus a bust dime in 63.
The logic is wierd to say the least. Another possibility for the lack of changes is that maybe CDN quality is slowly converging towards sight-unseen quality. Would not be surprised if a whole new sheet came out for ony PQ coins (joke). The CDN is fast losing any status it once had as a guide.
roadrunner
<< <i>Who came up with THE official US gallon and where does 'it' reside for comparison purposes? or the yard, meter, ounce, etc.? >>
Probably at the National Bureau of Standards.
<< <i>There is "Accurate" information and there is "Inaccurate" information. There is "Relevant" information and there is "Irrelevant" information. It's also possible to have too little information. I'm an analyst for a bank, I've never had "too much" information. >>
"statistics" & columns of "numbers", which is what banks use, is NOT information. it's DATA.
as a coin collector, you'd be a dammed fool to just rely on DATA!!! what kind of enjoyment could that possibly bring???
<< <i>Sometimes it takes a little longer but the more information I have the better and when I can get 150 pages on the security configuration of a single obscure network device I can hardly consider 8 pages as being too much information on the exchange of a million or so coins a month.
I like coins and I try not to get too bogged down in the $ and cents but if you're out buying (or selling) 5-20 Mint State coins a month and you're just paying what "feels" right, you must have more money to burn than I do. >>
ah, so the real problem is that your playing "dealer". your buying coins & hoping to resell them as a profit, but yet you admit that you are NOT a dealer.
see the problem here?
i think what you need to do is STOP right now, take a step back & decide why you are in this hobby & what you really hope to get out of it. if $$$ is your goal, then frankly, i think your in the wrong hobby, because what you really want is a BUSINESS. why don't you become a day-trader then?
if your motivation were satisfaction w/ BUYING & ENJOYING COINS, then that would be different, but you've yet to even mention what you enjoy about coins, other then $$$.
so like i said, your all tied up in knots about coin prices, etc., because, you really don't know what you want out of coin collecting.
K S
You guys on two opposite ends of the spectrum re: coins
Proselytize more aggressively or just be resolved to ....
<< <i>
<< <i><< . >>
Coynclecter, I don't think the quote from CDN was necessarily inconsistent with the fact that there were very few plus signs. I believe that something can be "in demand" without the price having to rise. If the demand increases, eventually the price should rise, though. >>
Absolutely!
there is definitely something very wrong in fooling yourself into thinking you enjoy collecting coins, when in fact what you enjoy is the opportunity to make $$$. it's very dangerous ground to be on when your not honest w/ yourself & what you want out of coins (much less life!)
you MUST learn to separate the business from the hobby if you are to have any chance to succeed at either!!!
K S
<< <i>there's nothing inherently wrong w/ being in coins for the $$$.
there is definitely something very wrong in fooling yourself into thinking you enjoy collecting coins, when in fact what you enjoy is the opportunity to make $$$. it's very dangerous ground to be on when your not honest w/ yourself & what you want out of coins (much less life!)
you MUST learn to separate the business from the hobby if you are to have any chance to succeed at either!!!
K S >>
imho we have a false dichotomy here, doesn't have to be either/or, mutually exclusive--consider my example above re: liking toned morgans irrespective of cost and liking making money on undervalued series of coins that you don't 'like' the way you do your morgans. I think one can do both within this wonderful field. Dealers can 'collect' on the side. 'Collectors' can make a profit when they decide to upgrade their coin.
Some personailities (i think obsessive compulsive traits were mentioned in antoher thread) boil and churn over the $$$ and some are tempted to boil and churn over the 'perfect' coin for their collection.
Would you like to offer some proof for the "MUST" above? That's pretty strong. Also, concept of "succeed"-ing begs the question, karl. Your presuppositions of success may tempt you towards too much 'fun' --there's goes the kid's tuition; or too much 'anxiety'--there goes my insomnia or ulcer.
I agree with your last post to the point that this really, really needs to be understood before one begins collecting coins. Further, the issue of understanding grading is equally important.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>there is definitely something very wrong in fooling yourself into thinking you enjoy collecting coins, when in fact what you enjoy is the opportunity to make $$$. it's very dangerous ground to be on when your not honest w/ yourself & what you want out of coins (much less life!) >>
I mostly agree. For the most part, either you're primarily an investor/speculator, for whom the profit potential is the main driving factor, or you're primarily a collector, for whom the enjoyment of the coin is the main factor.
You can be a collector who has an eye on what will likely do well in resale. But if you're a collector, a very discerning, quality-conscious collector that doesn't take just *anything* for the grade, you can have a collection that can do well on resale regardless of motive, even if future resale isn't in the cards and isn't why you picked that coin.
I for one appreciate that I have a "hobby" (which, by definition, is usually a money-suck) that has the strong potential in the long run to financially give me back more than I put into it. That's not why I collect, though. Otherwise I wouldn't occasionally pay a bit too much for coins that probably aren't "worth it" according the the sheets but which I really like a lot. For the type set I've recently started building, there are no bargains. If I want to find premium quality AU-58 type coins for much less than MS-60/61 money, I'm doomed to disappointment. I can forget the pricesheets for the most part. But that's okay, because first and foremost, I like the coin. I'll do my best not to get sucked into paying "stupid money" for a coin, but you know what? On rare occasions if I have one that just screams out at me, yeah, it may happen that I'll pay double what the sheet says I should have. But this is for my long-term enjoyment, not a quick buck.
Someone who is a "collector" first and foremost -- one who "visits" and enjoys his/her coins, reads about their history, their grading, their varieties and such -- derives enough pleasure from their collection year after year that the value of the enjoyment should be factored into the "return on investment." You paid $50 for a coin 20 years ago that's worth $60 now? Not that great...but if you've loved that coin for many, many years, it's probably given you an amount of enjoyment and satisfaction that far exceeds the sale price. An "investor" assigns the value of the enjoyment of ownership at or near zero. The collector doesn't. (Yeah, that's overgeneralizing, but on the extremes, I think it's accurate.)
I have some coins from 40 years ago worth pennies, some worth a lot more but I'd never sell them. Is it wrong to take advantage of my experience to make a buck or two even if its not the coins I'd prefer to collect. This gives me more money to buy and keep coins I like. I don't have an unlimited supply of money. I have no customers, no want list, no store but I get to own hold and play with 5-10 coins a month I otherwise would never own. And in doing so I might make enough to add one of them to my collection.
<< <i>So a "real" collector only buys what they plan to keep and they pay no attention to cost, just pay whats asked. So if I want to be a real collector (instead of just fooling myself) I need to pass on the undergraded underpriced coins that I run across. To buy them and sell them for a profit would make me a "dealer." and dealers are cold blooded profitmakers who don't enjoy coins. You have a real black/white vision of this don't you. >>
Well, if this is directed at me, I acknowledged that I was overgeneralizing toward the extremes. For most people, there's some aspect of enjoyment *and* value-building to varying degrees. But if you are focused on getting the best pieces first and foremost, you may need to pay a price that makes quick resale unprofitable. And if you are primarily looking to make a quick buck, you'll probably have to buy some stuff that may not be the most appealing to you because it's what's "hot" in the market.
Most people in the hobby are somewhere in between to varying degrees. But just as ridiculously overpaying for something will be a losing financial proposition, slavish devotion to what's most likely to rise the most in value isn't really what I'd call collecting, or at least not collecting to maximize enjoyment of collecting for its own sake. So there are tradeoffs.
Hope that's a little more clear.
<< <i>there is definitely something very wrong in fooling yourself into thinking you enjoy collecting coins, when in fact what you enjoy is the opportunity to make $$$ >>
quoteth Dorkkarl
which is where my response was directd
Regarding GS: I think this guide is used by some dealers at shows to demonstrate to collector who might have coins for sale that said dealer is "in the know." No way should a collector sell his or her truly nice, rare or scarce coin to a dealer at the commonly heard "10 back of bid."
Don't be so lazy. Seek out the other collector to get your best price. They're out there.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I'll usually eat when it's an opportune time and after taking care of other matters which can be more
pressing.
Certainly this is the same in my collecting/ investing/ speculating/ promoting/ trading/ study of coins,
tokens and medals. With some collections my interest is nearly pure study or collecting and in others
it is mostly speculation. Some of my favorite collections started out as pure speculation but evolved
over the years as the coins and I evolved and matured. Some collections were begun on a whim, but
have proven to be fascinating and even potentially valuable. At least one collection was started strictly
for study but I've come to see it as a significant mistake and incredibly its large size includes a couple of
valuable coins.
Yes. It certainly is the collector who tends to do best financially in this hobby and it certainly is never
wise to delude one's self but there are opportunities and enjoyment on many levels and for those of
varying motivations.
It is the "pursuit of happiness' that ultimately drives the hobby, but it does take all kinds.
<< <i>while I believe Mark's done a great job in my area of interest (Merc dimes) I've seen absolutely no value changes in over 2 years in the ENTIRE SERIES which is sad and pathetic. I am sure this holds true to many other series too. Not sure what to make of that at all. >>
This is pathetic especially when dealers will try to buy coins 20% back of Gray Sheet from collectors and then turn around and sell at some other trends price which could be and is at times within this series triple of what they bought the coin for. Nothing wrong with a dealer trying to make a honest living but some of this stuff is just plain theft. Trust me on this it happened yesterday. The guy did it with a straight face also.
Do not get me wrong on this. Some of the common stuff is priced somewhat correctly but most of the not so common stuff is off by three or four miles. Seems funny that the only thing dealers want is the not so common stuff. Hmmm....
Ken