OBW rolls... *update*73 D Lincoln grade recieved....

Smitty79

I just got three original bank wrapped rolls in the mail today. One roll of 1966 Jeffersons, one 1973 Lincolns and one 1978 Lincolns. Besides the obvious doubled dies and other errors, are there any varieties I need to look for?

Shamika

We'll assume you'll be looking for Full Steps on those Jeffersons.

oreville

Are you speaking of P Mint D mint or S mint (for 1973?)

P or D mint for 1978?

In reality, just stalling you until someone can give you the real answers as I am at work.

Smitty79

Oh yea, forgot the mintmarks, they are D mint. I quickly browsed through some of the nickels and from what I saw, FS is out of the question. Real mushy strike on the steps.

Smitty79

TTT for the night owls.

littlebear329

probably won't find much most rolls have already been searched thru

Smitty79

<< <i>probably won't find much most rolls have already been searched thru >>



Original bank wraped roll of BU coins searched? How? These were wraped in the year they were issued. I found a few nice coins, but nothing outstanding.

JRocco

Go to Chuck's site at coppercoins.com and check it out for those Lincoln varieties. Great Site.

JRocco

<< probably won't find much most rolls have already been searched thru >>
Many rolls may have been searched for gems but overlooked for varieties. I have found many varieties in previously searched rolls. This 1944P Lincoln, that Chuck verified as a Discovery coin- a new find - came from a searched roll.

Chuck designated it as 1944P 1DO-003

Smitty79

I've been on Chucks site. It's a nice site. One of these days I'll get around to buying his book. I found a few nice coins in the '73 roll. The reverse strikes on the '78s were terrible. The '66 nickels had nothing even close to full steps. Just about all these coins were mark free coins but for the most part, the nice clean strike just wasn't there. Oh well it was still fun cracking open 25+ year old rolls.

Smitty79

Here is one of the better '73 Lincolns I found in the roll. I can't grade to save my own life so I thought I would post em here for all the critics. Opinions?

I will eventually get a pic of one of the '66 Jeffs and maybe a '78 Lincoln up for scrutinizing.

Cladiator

Looks like some pretty heave die polishing on the obverse? Aint that thing in a PCGS slab?

coppercoins

Your 73D there is a nice MS65, saved by the ultra-clean and surprisingly well struck reverse. Not worth holdering though.

1973D is a tough year to find anything worthwhile, although you could be surprised by a decent (likely rather minor) RPM. There are no known doubled dies for this issue that I am aware of. One thing I like to look for (although very highly unlikely) on 1973 cents is a mule with a 1972 reverse. The difference is in the size of the designers initials. The 1972 initials are half the size of the 1973 initials and are usually very faint. I have never found such a coin but am not giving up. All the muled Ikes and Jeffersons tell me there has to be one out there, and if it were found in mint state it would be a very valuable piece.

1978P or D cents are likely worthless for doubled dies, RPMs, or even higher grade coins. If you can muster an MS67 out of them you have a nice coin for a holder, but MS66 or lower is nothing more than a conversation piece. There are no known die varieties for any 1977 or 1978 cent...two of only three years in the memorial series with no known die varieties. The other contestant for most worthless for die variety cherrypickers is 1967. Don't lose all hope, though. Search them anyway. If you find anything at all, you'll make a lot of cherrypickers nervous. Most skip this date altogether.

On your nickels someone else will have to answer. I know full steps is worth something in any date through the mid-90s. Other than that I'm clueless. Part of the hazard of knowing too much of only one thing.

haletj

He has it in a Whitman holder, just like how I have my 73-d penny. Actually that is pretty nice! I went through 50 original rolls of 73-d and am not sure I got one that nice! Looks like a solid ms66, maybe an $80-$100 coin. (If it is indeed nicer than the best from my rolls I'd buy it from you!)

Sequitur

Smitty, that's a nice Lincoln. Always nice to find a good MS coin in a roll, and that's one I'd hold on to just to have it, no matter the value. Now post up the other coins you referenced.

Coppernicus

Smitty79 - Beware of "OBW" rolls - many are not!! Someone can buy a true OBW roll, open one end carefully, search the coins, reload the roll, and crimp it with a $0.10 roll crimper ( a piece of junky plastic available on ebay and elsewhere). If done carefully, it is hard to detect unless you know what to look for.

I bought one of these crimpers and played around with it on some cent rolls. I got pretty good at making it look like it was machine wrapped, but it's not perfect. Now that I know what to look for, I can see it in the pictures people put in their ebay auctions and therefore don't bid. I've seen rolls in dealer's shops that were tampered with in this way.

TRUE OBW rolls are a lot more scarce than you would think, based on how many "OBW" rolls you see for sale.

Mike

coppercoins

I'll echo what Mike said, and will add that most 1973 OBW rolls will be very tightly wrapped in red and white paper with a bank name, usually a logo, on the paper. If you have brown or pink paper around your gems they probably aren't original.

This, in fact, goes for most OBW cent rolls from 1971 through 1985 and beyond. Lighter salmon colored paper was common in the 1950s, and dark pink paper was common in the late 50s through the 60s...not a hard and fast, just a general rule of thumb. This is all for cents, of course. I wouldn't have a clue what other denominations are wrapped in.

Smitty79

Thanks for the comments. I have one other well struck example like the one pictured and another that has slightly less detail along the top of the Lincoln memorial. I may send the two well struck ones in just for giggles and to see what it grades. Thanks for the info on the mule. I'll go through the roll again and see what I find, you never know. The '78's are terrible strikes. The Memorial steps are almost nonexistant. Smooth as a babys.....well, you know.

Sequitur

I got pretty good at making it look like it was machine wrapped, but it's not perfect. Now that I know what to look for, I can see it in the pictures people put in their ebay auctions and therefore don't bid. I've seen rolls in dealer's shops that were tampered with in this way.

This is good advice. Realizing rolls can be tampered with, occasionally you'll see an auction for rolls that are still in the U.S. Mint's sealed shipping boxes (moderns are shipped in white boxes) and a stock photo is used to represent the contents of the box. Those auctions usually do well.

Smitty79

Here's the pics from the auctions.









Edit: Thanks for the advice, I had no idea rolls could be tampered with.

Coppernicus

Sequitur and others - I bought hundreds of "OBW" rolls on ebay before I caught on! I'd say about 70% or more had been opened and somewhat cleverley resealed. I still buy some here and there but only if the pic looks good. Funny thing is, many times the opened/resealed rolls have been searched for the gems, but not for varieties. Possibilities!!

BTW, I've bought some tubed Lincoln wheat rolls on ebay that contained some super gems!! All in all, a so-called OBW roll may not be any better than a well-preserved BU tubed roll.

Mike

coppercoins

<< <i>The '78's are terrible strikes. The Memorial steps are almost nonexistant. Smooth as a babys.....well, you know. >>



You can't really use the step-count of the late 70s Lincolns for a measure of strike. Not like you can with the pre-1974 coins. Steps are almost non-existent blurs on all late 70s cents. Your strike is determined by the strength of the upper lettering, especially around STATES. If that's all full and complete, you have a decent strike. Unfortunately, even with a full strike you will often have coins made with dies that should have been retired long before your coins were struck. Seems they tried making the entire year's run without changing dies - really mushy, flat details that bleed with the rims are the rule rather than the exception, which is one good reason why no DDRs have been found to date. If there were any, they would go missed because the design is usually horrendously disfigured.

Coppernicus

Smitty79 - The second pic of the Jefferson roll end is exactly what I am talking about. I'm almost 100% certain that roll has been opened and resealed. Do a web search for "Twist and Crimp" - it's a coin roll crimper that is cheap and can do an OK job, but not as good as a bank machine.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong about your Jeff roll, but it doesn't look right to me.

Mike

coppercoins

<< <i>BTW, I've bought some tubed Lincoln wheat rolls on ebay that contained some super gems!! All in all, a so-called OBW roll may not be any better than a well-preserved BU tubed roll.

Mike >>



Taken from a gentleman with TONS of experience cherrypicking varieties - Frank Baumann. Years ago he told me to buy tubed rolls whenever I had a chance. He said they ALWAYS produced better results for varieties than did the bank wrapped rolls. He couldn't answer why, but he kept maticulous records on it and that's how the cookie crumbled. I have noticed it too...so there must be some merit to it. I sure miss his knowledge and input. He had a severe stroke three years ago that left him completely unable to continue as a numismatist...and one hell of a numismatist he was.

clackamas

<< <i>

<< <i>BTW, I've bought some tubed Lincoln wheat rolls on ebay that contained some super gems!! All in all, a so-called OBW roll may not be any better than a well-preserved BU tubed roll.

Mike >>



Taken from a gentleman with TONS of experience cherrypicking varieties - Frank Baumann. Years ago he told me to buy tubed rolls whenever I had a chance. He said they ALWAYS produced better results for varieties than did the bank wrapped rolls. He couldn't answer why, but he kept maticulous records on it and that's how the cookie crumbled. I have noticed it too...so there must be some merit to it. I sure miss his knowledge and input. He had a severe stroke three years ago that left him completely unable to continue as a numismatist...and one hell of a numismatist he was. >>



Interesting because this is my exact experience, tubed rolls are better. You can get tubed rolls cheaper as well. I have told this story before but I got a tubed roll of 43-p jeffs and the top coin in the tube, which was the end roll coin originally was a DDO (double eye), the roll contained 9 others as well, in fact I have that exact coin on Ebay right now. It was graded twice as MS63 and finally an MS62 after 3 attempt to get the FS designation.Link I even made an MS64FS 68-S Jeff from a tubed roll for $3 on ebay.

coppercoins

Well, the ayes have it. There's four people with a combined experience of thousands (if not tens of thousands) of rolls and all four say tubed rolls are better. Pretty cool, this internet thingy. Would have taken weeks to establish that, if ever, through the old pony express method.

Coppernicus

One more thought: Though the tubed rolls are cheaper, usually I can tell from the first coin or two if the roll is any good. It's very disappointing when the first few are spotted - the rest will probably be the same. With a true OBW roll, while the same is sometimes true, every once in a while the first few coins disappoint, but there are gems further down in the roll.

An OBW roll of '51-D Lincolns comes to mind. The first four or so were corroded, the next ten were a bit spotted, but the next five were awesome! After that, they reverted to the same quality as the beginning of the roll. I have one of the 51-D's at PCGS now - hoping for 67 (pray!!), lock 66.

Mike

Smitty79

Again, thanks for the info and advice with the rolls. These are the first rolls I've ever bought and I thought I would try my hand at some cherry picking. I guess I still have alot to learn. Here are some pics of one of the '66 Jeffs and '78 Lincolns.

cladking

<< <i>Again, thanks for the info and advice with the rolls. These are the first rolls I've ever bought and I thought I would try my hand at some cherry picking. I guess I still have alot to learn. Here are some pics of one of the '66 Jeffs and '78 Lincolns.

] >>




Unfortunately these coins look pretty typical for what you'd expect to find in the rolls. The '66
is from a little newer die and a lot better struck than average (also cleaner). The '78 is even
more typical. You can look through hundreds or rolls from hundreds of sources and not find
too much more than this except for an occasional variety and a perhaps a choice example or
two. Except for several specific dates in each denomination the chances of finding gems is re-
mote. With some denominations you won't even find the rolls, much less gems.

It's ironic that many believe all these coins are common and that they'll eventually flood the
market.

I've always suspected that the tubed coins are better because they were more likely to have
been put away by a real collector and someone who cared about the coins. Also some were
obviously cherrypicked from a bag or a larger quantity of coins. This may well apply to a roll
with 9 DDO '43 nickels in it.

clackamas

<< <i>

<< <i>Again, thanks for the info and advice with the rolls. These are the first rolls I've ever bought and I thought I would try my hand at some cherry picking. I guess I still have alot to learn. Here are some pics of one of the '66 Jeffs and '78 Lincolns.

] >>


I've always suspected that the tubed coins are better because they were more likely to have
been put away by a real collector and someone who cared about the coins. Also some were
obviously cherrypicked from a bag or a larger quantity of coins. This may well apply to a roll
with 9 DDO '43 nickels in it. >>




Not 9 ... 10 including the end roll coin.

Shamika

Smitty,

I think the 1973-D Lincoln is a shot 66 (love the die polish).

The 1966 Jefferson looks 64, possibly 65 (frosty).

The 1978-D Lincoln is not very attractive. I'd say MS62 (big hit in the mouth, poor luster, terrible strike).

coppercoins

<< <i>The 1978-D Lincoln is not very attractive. I'd say MS62 (big hit in the mouth, poor luster, terrible strike). >>



I agree here with everything but the part about strike. The hair and shoulder on the obverse and the center lower part of the memorial and "STATES" on the reverse are usually the last part of the coin to be struck up, and his coin shows all of this. The problem with this coin (as is typical for 1978 cents) is that the dies were worn to shambles when the coin was struck. It had enough pressure to completely fill the recesses of the die, but the die's recesses had no sharp edges because of metal flow, having struck hundreds of thousands of coins before this one. That's why the details are mushy and the letters around the edge of the design on both sides are losing their definition. In technical terms we refer to this as "very late die state."

At any rate, the gashes on the obverse and the mushy details (affecting luster as well) keep this one well below GEM level. 62, maybe 63 at best....which is normal and is also the reason why MS66+ 1978 cents are worth quite a bit.

Shamika

<< <i>I agree here with everything but the part about strike. >>



I'll defer to the master. Coppercoins opinion should carry far more weight than my own.

Smitty79

I'm bringing this back up to the top cause I got the 73 D graded under the quarterly grading special (invoice #9034865). Coppercoins had the grade right, MS65RD.