Why are mint state seated coins so relatively inexpensive?
RYK
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I was recently perusing a dealer's online inventory when I came across a PCGS MS-64 seated coin with a total PCGS population in all grades of 35 and in MS-64 the pop was 2 with one higher. It this were a rare date gold coin the price would be well into the five figures, a Dahlonega piece might be $30-40,000, but this seated coin has a Coin Values/retail price for $4000. It is not an inexpensive coin by any means, but for its rarity seems extremely undervalued. There are many such values in the seated coin series (dollars excluded 
). Why are seated coins so relatively undervalued? Will they always be undervalued?
). Why are seated coins so relatively undervalued? Will they always be undervalued? 0
Comments
Seated dollars are. as you said, another story. Seated dollars in original, unfutzed-with AU+ are downright hard to find. I wonder what there was about seated dollars in particular that made so many people want to take an S.O.S. pad to them.
* Difficulty to find, so collectors give up and do something else.
* Difficulty to find nice, as compared to PF specimens.
* Usually, very lengthy series to complete.
* Difficult to understand entire series for avg newb.
* Difficult to understand pricing structure, since actual nice pieces trade for far in excess of published guides.
* Yesterday news, compared to what we grew up knowing and loving.
* Not "precious" enough of a metal, as compared to gold and plat.
* Not resilient enough to env, as compared to gold.
* Not enough from the "good ole days" of the CC, O, D(ah) and C mints.
BTW, I take slight exception to this entire premise. If you can acquire a nice MS Seated piece that isn't one of the latter, commonly available in high-grade, dates for anywhere near CWT or sheet, then you probably got a rip.
E.g., I sold an 49-O 25c recently. It was thoroughly original, properly graded AU58 by PCGS and looked like an AU62 coin all day long. We paid over 60 money for the coin, and sold it immediately to a knowledgeable customer who said "yes" before I even said the price.
I have so many more examples like this...
Basically, I assert that the published price guides as waaaaaaaaaaay off for most of this stuff. The real knowledgeable market for this is VERY different.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
One of the problems with seated coins is that there aren't enough to go around, so it is hard to get a lot of collectors involved. I see several markets in seated coins:
(a) Very high end type coins - this is stuff that places like Legend and Pinnacle sell. There are enough of these kinds of coins for high end type collectors (note that many of them are proof coins). Typical offering is a PR67 quarter selling for 5K or so. Pretty coin, but its investment potential is based more on the strength of the overall market, as opposed to the hard core date collectors.
(b) Date collectors putting together sets in varying circulated grades. Note, it is impossible to collect seated coins in all gem (or even all unc) condition - see the Eliasberg collection (TDN, don't tell me about your SD set - you already know you are one in a million!). These collectors tend to be very persistent in completing sets and to keep their coins off the market for a long time - thus making it even harder for newbies to get in the game. However, the collector base here is such that anyone going into circulated seated coins will be fairly insulated from the rest of the market.
(c) Mint collectors. Like southern gold. There are a few New Orleans seated collectors I'm aware of, but not enough yet to make a significant impact on the price of NO seated coinage. The same is not true for Carson City coins which have gone absolutely ballistic as of late, especially the rare dates. I have heard of no one collecting only SF coins but I don't go out to the west coast shows. The CC coins have the best "story" in the seated series of all the branch mints, they are the rarest, and the date collectors MUST have them to complete sets, not to mention a number of folks collecting only CC coinage. Let's say that there are 100 serious collectors of dimes by date out there - what's going to happen to the price of a 74-CC of which maybe 50 exist? As you can see, the rarity of the coins we are talking about here really limits how many collectors can get in. Compare to the stoppers in the Morgan series - there must at least a few thousand 93-Ss out there.
I think it is possible that new collectors will eventually gravitate to the classic type coins, but for the newbies collecting states quarters today, I suspect they will start with 20th century series and then perhaps move to more challenging things later on. I don't see the base of seated collectors significantly increasing in the near future (in fact the LSCC membership has been stagnant for a few years) - but I do believe there is a solid foundation of collectors in it for the long haul.
I wouldn't completely exclude the dollars. Granted, they are a notch higher, yet there are dates that IMO are still extreme bargains. For instance, how about an 1844 in MS63? A low mintage date with only two coins certified finer at PCGS, yet it sells for slightly over $10k.
Knowledgeable seated collectors will pay over CWT for problem free and original mint state coins. They are scarce and the pop reports reinforce the point. Will more 20th century collectors migrate to the "earlier" series after they become tired with the present high pop coins? Those that enjoy the historical significance of coinage will migrate over. Seated material does not have the appeal of gold, that is one of the problems. But gold coin prices are going out of sight and that might be good for the seated material.
Regardless, I'm moving forward with my seated dime PCGS and NGC registry sets and betting that, in the long term, I will break even or make some money with my nice full head examples.
I would be interested in understanding what TDN is all about.
?? If you clarify your question, perhaps I can help...
this example is just further proof that the single biggest consideration in pricing, as it should be, is demand. forget about actual rarity, grade rarity, coolness factor, eye appeal, Registry Set points, investor markets, etc. etc. etc...................if there is noone who wants to own a coin the price has no reason to be high and there will probably be slow to non-existant appreciation and stagnant value. there are countless issues of U.S. coins which are low pop/low price and countless issues which are high pop/high price.
in layman's terms, undervalued=low demand and overpriced=high demand.
your question might more accurately be rephrased as Why are mint state seated coins so relatively undesireable? the design is most likely the reason. i realize saying that is tantamount to sacriledge to some, but let's face it, decades and decades of the same design on multiple denominations is..........boring to many collectors. sure, there are key dates and rarity within each series, but overall there is weak demand for a design that can be found in relative abundance.
JMHO, of course, so load and fire!!!
al h.
Is'nt this alot more than all the currectly graded MS seated now
TDN, don't tell me about your SD set - you already know you are one in a million
Unc Seated Dollar Set
If Seated coins are so ugly and unpopular, how come there are seldom any nice circ. raw pieces available at coin shows, except the commonest dates? I think they are popular (especially as Civil War era silver coins), and the price guides are just drastically out of date because it's hard to establish a price for them. I think they are great coins. I put my money where my mouth is by spending my entire annual coin budget on a nice, old-time collection of Seated half dimes this year. I know I won't regret it in the long run.
Here are my thoughts on the matter (coming from a newbie to the series):
1. I am surprised that the people who drool over and overpay for (my opinion) toned Morgans have not migrated to the seated series because (my opinion, again) the seated coins can be readily found with the most spectacular toning. And you generally pay little or no premium for the great toning.
2. The No Motto seated dimes, quarters, and halves are historically interesting, scarce, and reasonably attractive. If someone wrote a book on them, they could become more popular.
3. The silver seated series and the gold coronet series have some interesting parallels. If anything, the gold coronets, which were produced over a longer period of time (1838-1908 vs. 1838-1891). They also have the No Motto vs. Motto distinctions, branch mint issues, eagle reverse, etc.). Collectors, like myself have found ways to collect the coronet gold coins without feeling that we have to bite off the entire denomonation to complete a set.
One could collect seated coins by year (all the coins, all mints or just P, from 1861, for example), by branch mint (San Francisco quarters, as an example would be interesting and challenging), by decade (one half dollar from each decade, for example), Civil War short sets, one of each branch mint, etc.
I do not know anything about the business side of coins, but it seems to me a savvy dealer, seated coin specialist, or the LSCC could find ways to make the seated coins approachable for more collectors.
4. Ultimately, the answer to my question is obvious, and Keets nailed it. If there is not enough demand, the coins will stay relatively inexpensive. And, as EVP points out, the pricing for the tougher dates is not accurately reflected by the price guides.
5. I hope that prices remain low for the time being, as I would like to diversify my collection with some nice (AU/MS and proof) seated coins. I think that seated silver and coronet gold complement one another nicely.
hey Ron
i don't think anyone has said they think the coins are ugly.
al h.
It all boils down to demand and the Seated coins are not in demand to the same degree as other popular series. In addition, putting together a Mint state, date/mintmark set in any of the seated series would be cost prohibitive and nearly impossible as each series has coins that are set stoppers and priced in the stratosphere.
Tyler
There are books on all the Seated coins, but most (or all?) of them came out in the early '90s, so some of them, like Bowers' Silver Dollar Encyclopedia or Wiley/Bugart's book on Seated Halves are hard to find.
Finally, PLEASE stop trying to generate some interest in Seated coins, or I'll have to come over there and break your knees!
(except for half dimes - you can talk about them all you want to, for all I care. And... actually, you can talk about the CC-mint coins, too.)
Check out the Southern Gold Society
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I did mention "S" mint quarters...that okay?
Edited to add the "
(NGC MS65 with amazing Raymond bullet toning) in 1990 for $21,500. I paid $4215 for this coin out of Superior's A. Houston Barry (lot 305) sale in Feb 1983. Coin was a technical MS64++ with superb eye appeal. At that same time an 1857-0 not as nice brought $5500. I considered the 1859-0 toughest of all the "commoner" "O" mints back then, but now it seems the 58-0 may the king of the 1855-60 gems. And the Barry coin today would certainly grade 66 today on eye appeal. I haven't seen it since 1990 but figure it would fetch well over $30,000 today. I bailed on the coin in 1990 because I thought it wouldn't hold value as the market turned. You can see what it has done since....it's well exceeded it's 1990 high. I also bought a decent MS62 1858-0 in 1989 for $550 out of another Long Beach auction and did not have the foresight to keep that "lowly" coin knowing it was in the top 10 known. Dumb mistake. Today that would be a MS63 and worth $5000 or more.
Seated dates have far exceeded my expectations since 1990. They have countered a down market all through the 1990's. In circ grades especially....something I never saw coming. If someone thinks like me that nothing was gonna change....we've both been proven WRONG. I think the 1867-s 25c also proved that. Seated has come back like gangbustas, and it only takes a few people to make a difference.
Seated still has much potential. Value seeking buyers will eventually go there. As long as coins are "in" there will be people discovering seated as well as 19th century dated gold. I like the silver coins myself because they are far cheaper than the gold, and in many cases just as rare. In 20 years from know, we'll be kicking ourselves for buying common series that newbies love while scarce seated kicked butt. Dealers don't want to recommend this stuff because they can make more selling common stuff. And it's a lot of work too....as well as fun.
While I couldn't put together a full set of seated quarters I lowered my expectations and shot for 1858-0 and 1867-s mint sets. I had the key coins in hand but faultered over the halves which I thought I could find. A superb 58-0 and 67-s half eluded me for too long and I gave up the chase after 4 years. It took until the 1997 Eliasberg sale until a nice 67-s half hit the market...a full 14 years once I began my quest. I probably should have waited but did not have the foresight to think things would get better. Type coins kicked butt in 1989 but rare date seated came back to kick type's butt in the the 1995-2004 market. When everyone thinks they are right about the direction a market will go...they are invariably proved wrong.
roadrunner
I was hoping for additional dealer input here (thanks, Steve). Laura? Mark? Or any others?
In thinly traded material like we are talking about, specialist collector observations are just as good as (sometimes better) than dealer input - not to dis our dealer friends here.
Now, if you want to talk about DMPL CC Morgans, I will be happy to defer to our friends at Legend
By the way, I've never (as far as I can recall) seen a pre-Civil War S-mint seated coin at a coin show, except for the 1859-S dollar. Has anyone else had better luck than I (any denomination, any grade)?
Check out the Southern Gold Society
Still, my favorites, even more so than the "O" mint quarters, are the with motto "S" mint quarters of 1866 to 1872. For years they "hid" out among the more common WM type coins despite some lower mintages. Some of the NM dates got all the attention. At one time I was trying to build this 6 coin set in gem unc. I had the 66-s, 67-s, and 69-s (MS 66, 66, and 65). I also had a 68-s in MS64 as the only better one available at the time was an incredible MS67 piece that was both unavailable and out of my price range. The 71-s was available at that time too and was probably the easiest of the group due to a small hoard that broke years earlier. The Norweb gem 1872-s sold for in 1988 for $17,600 and was a missed opportunity. The new owner later stated he was willing to go around 30% higher. This is possibly the MS66 listed on the NGC pop report.
I still dream about owning such a 5 or 6 coin set of either "O" (1856-0 to 1860-0) or "S" mints 1866-1872. These are the only "short" sets that I would like to own! But that time is probably long past.
roadrunner