Can't Grade Buffalos? Keep This In Mind....

mojorizn

The prevailing opinion on this forum (and most all collectors, for that matter) is that Buffalo Nickels are a very difficult series to grade. The fact that the quality of strike varies so greatly from coin to coin does make accuracy in grading quite challenging. As an example, branch mint issues from the period 1917-26 frequently exhibit little design detail but copious mint luster.

There is no substitute for experience when learning to distinguish between weak strike and actual wear. Areas plagued by weakness, and as such, good starting points to focus on, are the hair ribbon and area immediately above it, the bison's head, and the hair detail on the bison's shoulder. Peripheral elements seem to be effected to a lesser extent in my experience. An excellent area to focus on when determining strike quality, at least for the reverse, is the bison's hip, flank, and tail detail. Wear occurs here first but isn't as subject to strike weakness as the previously mentioned areas.

Now we come to the all important horn. As David Lange states in "The Complete Guide to Buffalo Nickels, 2nd edition", this feature "is the single most important element in establishing the value of a circulated Buffalo nickel".

For those new to or unfamiliar with the series, the "Official ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins" states that the POINT of the bison's horn must be visible in order to attain a grade of VF-20. In other words, the horn must be fully differentiated from the rest of the head.

You will not find this criteria being met, particularly with dates that are in high demand but typically exhibiting a weak strike. "In practice, coins that meet most of the criteria for the assignment of a particular grade will usually receive that grade and may be valued in accordance with current price guides.". Lange, again. This fact may offend some Buffalo Nickel purists, but the fact remains that this is the normal practice with well struck specimens of typically poorly struck issues, commanding premiums over VF money when the coin technically meets the ANA's VF grading criteria.

Keep in mind that these standards are written for coins that are fully struck. allowances are being made for coins that are difficult to locate fully struck by third party grading services, and as a result, are becoming the norm throughout the collecting community. EXPECT A FH DESIGNATION IN THE NEAR FUTURE!

If you apply these points to the grading standards set out in the ANA grading guide, I believe you will be better armed when buying or selling. Nothing is more frustrating than attempting to enter into a transaction when neither party understands the expectations of the other. Just keep in mind that you won't pay VF money for a 1926-S nickel with a full horn. An extreme example to be sure, but a way to avoid disappointment nonetheless.

mojo

mojorizn

Lost in the shuffle.

mojo

tjkillian

Good information, thanks for sharing. Do you have pictures of mintstate coins from the branch mints that are particularly poorly struck as an example?

Tom

TUMUSS

Thanks for easing my pain a little. GREAT INFO!!

mojorizn

The best place to look at many mint state nickels from the 1917-26 period would be anrcoins.com. On their auctions page they have many large pictures of the lots and you can gain a lot of information from them as far as strike characteristics.

mojo

koynekwest

It is still my contention that a "Full braid" designation should be used for this issue. If this area is well struck or fully struck, the key points on the reverse will usually also be well/fully struck. Too much emphasis is placed on the horn. When the horn is lacking on an otherwise XF-AU-UNC coin, it's usually the result of worn dies, not strike.

mojorizn

I agree. This goes along with the fact that peripheral elements of the design are less likely to exhibit poor strike. Central elements are far more likely to be effected. The braid and the bison's shoulder lie directly opposite each other in the center of the coin. Pushing this past the proponents of the full horn would be difficult, however, as so many of us cut our teeth on the horn as grading gospel.

mojo

DennisH

Haven't I seen some mid-20s dates in Mint State that don't have a full horn? Isn't that how poorly some of them were struck?

mojorizn

There are several dates for which it is common to see mint state examples with very poor head and horn definition. Koynekwest brought up an important point that I failed to mention. During the '20's a lot of dies saw extended use and were frequently polished to extend the die life further. This manifests itself most often in the poor definition seen about the horn and hip area, as well as in the motto on the obverse. Two very different processes (weak strike, worn dies), same results, though typically effecting different design elements.

mojo

koynekwest

On some this may be true, but the majority come from worn reverse dies. You'll see many that have a decent obverse and a crummy reverse. When a weak horn is due to strike, the last half of the small feather on the obverse will also show little or no detail, as it's directly opposite from the horn.

Coinerww

Great Info.

BigD5

Give me a little bit, I'll post a pic of a mint state 26-d without a full horn.

The full horn grading criteria is flawed. First, the obverse is the primary grading side of any coin. The reverse is secondary. Go to an ANA grading class, and they will confirm that fact.

I look at the grading services distinguishing weakly struck coins and properly grading them by the features of the WHOLE coin, not necessarily JUST the horn detail.

Ok, that should rile a few up early on a Friday evening.

koynekwest

Big D-I agree. Low grade circulated Buffalos-AG thru Fine-SHOULD be graded by the wear on the date, much like Standing Liberty quarters SHOULD also be graded-by the wear on the date. Brown and Dunn is responsible for the horn thing back in 1958 when they put out their first grading guide-simpler grading for simpler times and an easy way for the casual collector to assign a grade to his coins (easy for dealers, too.)

FullHorn

I think the question is should you pay VF20 money for a coin without a full horn, or do the price guides reflect full horn money or VF20 money?

jom

I'd like to point out that I am ADAMENTLY against ANY kind of strike designation for this series. It's bad enough we have it for SLQ's and Mercs. God help us all if that use that non-sense for Buffalos. If someone wants to pay a premium for a strike then by all means BUT let the market decide not some TPG.

For the most part you can detect a AU Buff from a MS piece by looking for flatness on the Buffs rear end. That is a place that the strike is not a problem so you can see the wear easily.

jom

BigD5

koynkeywest, BINGO! The grading of coins is not as simple as it once was! Excellent point on this topic.

Fullhorn, I would suggest you pay what YOU deem appropriate. I know that's sort of a non-answer, but it works that way with any coin, really.

Jom, I'm with you. I can't stand FH, FB, FBL blah, blah, blah.

Russ

This is a positively excellent thread. After reading it, Buffalo nickel grading no longer completely confuses me. I'm down to only 90% confused.

Russ, NCNE

mojorizn

Wow! We've managed to remove 10% of Russ' confusion! An evening well spent IMO.

mojo

koynekwest

I suppose there would be abuse of a full braid designation just as there is for the full head label. I've seen many so called full head quarters slabbed, especially, by the guys across the street, that aren't even close. Of course, this says nothing about any other commonly weak part of the coin, such as the shield, etc, so when you get right down to it, I guess it's somewhat meaningless. (BUT, look at the big bucks these full head coins can bring.)

But how can you justify a full band designation for, of all things, Roosevelt dimes when deserving coins-i.e.-those with REAL strike problems, such as Buffalos and Walkers-have no mention of strike quality? Doesn't make sense to me.

BigD5

Who said the designations had to make sense? They make money for the TPG's. Sense is an afterthought.

The confusing part Russ, is that if you submit buffalo nickels, you are subject to one standard. If you talk with old fogies, you have a different standard. I'm 36, and would consider my knowledge of buffalo nickels as the old school stuff, but I'm young enough to have adapted to how the TPG's grade the coins. There's a difference.

mojorizn

Just did a quick study of auction prices realized over the last year and a half from the catalogs I've managed to collect. Holy cr@p! There are a lot of people shopping the early dates hard and well struck pieces are bringing serious premiums.

Check out this price swing:

1/5/04 Thomas Sebring Collection 1924-S PCGS MS64 Lot #1313 $5060.00
1/5/04 Thomas Sebring Collection 1924-S NGC MS64 Lot #1314 $3680.00
3/9/04 Haig Koshkarian Collection 1924-S NGC MS64 Lot #183 $4600.00

Now check out the archived photos in the auctions on anrcoins.com. It would be interesting to know who picked up these lots and what these coins looked like in hand.

mojo

koynekwest

Fullhorn-responding to your query-you can buy 'em all day, raw and slabbed, at VF money and lacking a full horn.
When it comes time to sell, often to the same dealer that sold it to you, the horn suddenly becomes the only issue and you'll rarely get full VF money for the coin.
I think it's wise, when paying full VF money for one, that you insist on coins with a full horn.

jom

<< <i>But how can you justify a full band designation for, of all things, Roosevelt dimes when deserving coins-i.e.-those with REAL strike problems, such as Buffalos and Walkers-have no mention of strike quality? Doesn't make sense to me. >>



You are correct, it doesn't make sense which is why I wish they would eliminate them. I mean...really...do you NEED someone to tell you a Merc is full band? Unless you are blind I think you can figure it out. Same with FH or FBL or whatever. The problem lies in the FACT a designation does not mean FULL STRIKE so what is the point of using it at all unless the designation says FULL STRIKE?

So...as it is...the best way to collect these series, IMO, is to go for sharp enough strikes that do not hinder the eye appeal of the coin in non-Full whatever holders. That way you get nicely struck coins without paying the stupid premiums. It's a niche I realize but a good one.

jom

koynekwest

Jom-
Very true, but the slab designation is what seems to qualify a coin for the phenominal money they sometimes bring, just as the stated grade can do. Raw stuff just never seems to equal a slabbed coin money wise.

I've always been an advocate of using a full strike percentage stated on a slab right along with the grade, such as MS65/90 or something similar; not that we have to be told how well a coin is struck if we're familiar with the type and it's design characteristics.

jom

Yes, I understand about raw material....you are correct but....



<< <i>not that we have to be told how well a coin is struck if we're familiar with the type and it's design characteristics. >>



Let's take that a step further...for acedemic purposes ..... once you are well informed about any particular series do we then have to be "told" what the grade is at that point? My point being is that the slab is only a guide. Once you are good enough at grading a series at some point the slab become moot, IMO. I know it will be far easier to sell because many of the people you would be selling too (the "market") may not be as well versed in the series as you so you need to have the 3rd party. But when buying...I don't know if the slab is really needed for a true expert.

jom

OnlyBuffalos

If you are collecting Buffalo nickels and you are not overly concerned with the TPG assigned grade, I suggest you set as an objective what your "ideal" criteria are in terms of horn, ribbon, surface, strike, etc. and collect to that ideal. In other words, put together your collection based on a selected eye-appeal. I believe a collection of coins that generally all have the same characteristics and look the same except for the date and mint mark, is the most attractive collection one can have.

If one puts together a collection that is based on grade (given today's grading standards for the S and D mints from the late 191x through 192x), one will wind up with a collection that is not all that appealing.

Libertad

Good points. I like the braid notion for determining the fullness of the strike, and it balances the problem of the
reverse being weak due to either weak strike or worn dies. A full strike with worn reverse dies will still leave the
horn, shoulder and hindquarters looking weak, even if there is no wear evident.

The date prominence differs especially in the 1920, 1921 and 1924 issues. Some were 'strong date' and others
were significantly paler, even with decent braid details.

sliderider

Welcome to Buffalo grading 101. Thanks. I never realized that the quality of the strikes on this series was so variable. I just thought they wore down quickly in circulation. Consistently weak striking would account for the unusually large number of low grade pieces out there compared to other contemporary series. I'll keep all this in the mind the next time I see an unusually pretty Buff with a low price tag.

Cratylus

This series is definitely a challenge to grade. I recently completed a set of these and my next task will be to upgrade to a completely full horn set, if it's possible.