Hey Folks, Check-out These Registry Quality Jeffersons for sale on BST board
Casabrown
Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭
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Casabrown
Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭
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Congrats on winning the 53-S from Nevadaman's FS nickel collection! $3105 is quite a chunk of money to spend on a coin that's not all there. You may have improved your registry set grade point average but do you think this coin improved the overall quality of your FS Jefferson collection?
Here's my 53-S! What do you think it's worth?
Concerning the PCGS MS66FS 1951-S you have for sell and I believe it's from the same collection, I personally looked at this coin in Pittsburgh where the auction took place. I thought it graded MS64 because of all the hits on the cheek! I overheard your agent saying that he got a few coins for your collection. You would think he would have said something about this coin before you bought it! You paid $2185 and now your your selling it at $1900! Good luck in trying to unload the thing.
What other coins did you receive from the Nevadaman's collection?
Regards, Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Thanks for your comments, but I am not at liberty at this point to discuss some of the particulars. As you know, quality like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I was fortunate to upgrade a number of coins during the show and if I knew well how to use my camera I would have provided pictures. Thanks again.
Casabrown
I see that you also grabbed the PCGS MS67FS 1947-D from that set! With the nicks on the forehead and cheek and in the steps, I thought that coin was overgraded as well. I did like the toning on that one though but IMO it's not a MS67 coin! Building a quality set won't happen overnight, such an accomplishment will take several years!
Good luck with your collection!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I, too, chose to remain silent on the misc. poor quality nickels in this sale (but I also did not discuss the super coins either and there were many). You know as well as I do what nickels were "problematic" - yet, you chose to only praise the collection before the sale? I have no problems with you "doing a friend a favor" and remaining quiet on the nickels from the sale that you disliked - but, to come on after the fact and lecture a collector who bought some - IMHO not in good taste.
And, incidently, I chose to not represent any collectors on any coins in the sale other than the 61(d). I did that, in part, to avoid discussing my views on a number of the coins in the sale. I generally prefer not to "badmouth" coins either before OR AFTER a sale.
On a separate note - your 53(s) nickel is very nice. I've only seen one other that compares favorably.
Wondercoin
Do you really believe that there was something that I could of said that would had made a believer out of someone, preventing them from making a bad choice! Before the sale, in a thread here, I made a presumptous notion that the set was great in quality given the years the set supposedly had in it's assembly! I attended the auction in Pittsburgh and rest assure, had I been given the quarantee that I wouldn't of been thrown out of the place, the thought did cross my mind, that I would of liked to have made my little speech! lol There was no way of raising the flags on half those coins before the auction!You're aware, as well as I, that the only real goal of most PCGS registrants is what's typed on the slab and not what's actually on the coin! But I could be wrong as I sense Larry is not a happy camper with what he received. As for the Heritage auctions, the pics speak for themselves but just like everyones says, it's impossible to grade coins from pictures. But it's so easy to see the nicks and worn dies but yet people bid anyway! As for saving Larry and the others, they should have known, had they been reading into my many threads and posts but I doubt it!
You want to save the FS collectors? Then lets start promoting fully strucked, high grade examples over all these misnomers that are ending up in the slabs, on every date and mint in the series! I would rather see the enthusiasm shift, among all FS nickel collectors, towards the fully strucked, high grade 1953-S that may have only 3 or 4 steps! Too much emphasis is placed solely on the steps and not the entire coin in question! Hopefully, everyone, including the TGCs, will eventually learn how to grade and appreciate the high quality, fully stucked Jefferson nickels regardless of 5 complete steps!
Did you personally see the coins in Pittsburgh?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I resisted extensive responses to your comments because as an observer of the discourse on many of these boards, it is often not constructive. I was not going to respond especially after Mitch's comments. (By the way Mitch, thanks). However, your response to Mitch compelled me to re-enter the discussion.
You make some assumptions that are off target. You cannot assume that everyone would respond similarly to your efforts or that of anyone else if there is an earnest attempt at providing valuable information. I really appreciate lessons taught, if there is an honest effort at teaching, before decisions are to be made. Your comments to my thread were clearly less vague than anything you may have provided prior to my thread.
I am fully aware that building a quality set does take considerable time and effort. It is also true that effective learning and teaching are best achieved by adherence to a number of key principles. Among those include the content of the message. I cannot say that your approach is an example of the most constructive methods.
Finally, your comments make an excellent argument for those wishing to hide their sets from viewing by others. In hiding one's set you avoid this type of discussion. Should you wish to be more proactive and constructive in the future, you will find that I will have an eager and attentive ear. I, too, wish you well.
Casabrown
Leo: I lot viewed the collection at Bowers offices here in S. CA. - actually 2x. Bowers was gracious enough to allow me to lot view the collection before the set made it in print in the catalog and then again during regular lot view hours at their offices before the coins went to Pittsburgh.
Obviously, the crown jewel of the collection was the 1961(d) Jeff. But, there were other sensational coins, such as 1955(p), the 46(s), the 53(p) and several others (I also loved winning the 54(p) color coin for under $1k as well for my personal collection - what a coin). And, of course, as with most collections, there were some less than stellar coins. I agree with you that Jeffs are one of the most challenging series to actually build a "true to the assigned grade" collection.
I commend Casabrown (and I do not recall selling Larry a Jeff this year, so I say this in an unbiased manner) - if he did make a mistake and buy a coin he regretted (like we all haven't done that?), at least he DID THE RIGHT THING and immediately decided to sell the coin at a loss. He did not whine at the auction company to see if he could get his purchase voided, he did not whine at the dealer who he asked to execute a bid for him - instead, he stepped up, assumed responsibility and accepted the fact he may likely lose hundreds of dollars on this coin. But, then again, I do not know the details of what Larry is doing - perhaps he is not losing money and perhaps he is not selling a problem coin at all.
Bottom line is that there are many constructive ways to educate collectors.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Leo,
I resisted extensive responses to your comments because as an observer of the discourse on many of these boards, it is often not constructive. I was not going to respond especially after Mitch's comments. (By the way Mitch, thanks). However, your response to Mitch compelled me to re-enter the discussion.
You make some assumptions that are off target. You cannot assume that everyone would respond similarly to your efforts or that of anyone else if there is an earnest attempt at providing valuable information. I really appreciate lessons taught, if there is an honest effort at teaching, before decisions are to be made. Your comments to my thread were clearly less vague than anything you may have provided prior to my thread.
I am fully aware that building a quality set does take considerable time and effort. It is also true that effective learning and teaching are best achieved by adherence to a number of key principles. Among those include the content of the message. I cannot say that your approach is an example of the most constructive methods.
Finally, your comments make an excellent argument for those wishing to hide their sets from viewing by others. In hiding one's set you avoid this type of discussion. Should you wish to be more proactive and constructive in the future, you will find that I will have an eager and attentive ear. I, too, wish you well.
Casabrown >>
Well, I guess I can apologize if I shot from the hip there a bit too strongly on the coins you received but they are my opinions! While at the auction after seeing the collection, I couldn't help thinking that I have many of those coins in a jar at home. lol But 13 years ago or so, I bought them cheap so I really can't complain.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>"Did you personally see the coins in Pittsburgh?"
Obviously, the crown jewel of the collection was the 1961(d) Jeff. But, there were other sensational coins, such as 1955(p), the 46(s), the 53(p) and several others (I also loved winning the 54(p) color coin for under $1k as well for my personal collection - what a coin).
Wondercoin >>
Yes, the 1955(p), the 46(s), the 53(p) were a few of the exceptional coins! I don't remember the 55 very well but had hopes of acquiring the 46-S. I loved the toning although the strike was a bit soft and it needed a little more luster. I couldn't touch the 53, perhaps one of the greatest coins out there. I won't comment on the 61-D but will wait until you have it in hand and I would like you to give a full description on the strike, grade and steps, if you will! Other coins that I thought were of high quality were the 1939-S, 40PD, 42-D, 43PDS, 48D, 49D, 50, 51, 56PD, 59D to name a few but that's IMO. I saw the 54-P, yes it had some exceptional toning!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
And, I agree with your assessment of a number of the other coins you mentioned as well.
Are you getting close to your "day in the sun" - the day you place your 53(s) Jeff in an auction and see what that coin is really worth? I suspect your would enjoy spirited bidding.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Mitch
You want to save the FS collectors? Then lets start promoting fully strucked, high grade examples over all these misnomers that are ending up in the slabs, on every date and mint in the series! I would rather see the enthusiasm shift, among all FS nickel collectors, towards the fully strucked, high grade 1953-S that may have only 3 or 4 steps! Too much emphasis is placed solely on the steps and not the entire coin in question! Hopefully, everyone, including the TGCs, will eventually learn how to grade and appreciate the high quality, fully stucked Jefferson nickels regardless of 5 complete steps!
Leo >>
Leo, what you're trying to do here is just not cool. It is, in fact, flat out rude. I can think of no other reason for you to have come in unattacked here and badmouth someone's purchases, unless the above quote implies that you have better coins in your judgement that are not worth as much as they should be. If that is the case, then your non full step coins that are "Fully Strucked" should stand on their own volition. If you have equivalent coins sitting in your change jar at home like you say you do, then by all means bring them out and show your prizes to the world. If someone else pays more than they should have in your estimation for any coin, then they may find that out down the line. They don't need people like you to tell them so, as they will slowly find that out. It sounds more like sour grapes to me. IMO, any FS 53S in a PCGS holder, no matter what it looks like, will be a good investment.
<< <i>Leo: I appreciate your consideration in not commenting on the 1961(d) Jeff if you were personally not crazy about the coin. I really liked the coin as my favorite coin in the collection (but, that's what makes a horse race
And, I agree with your assessment of a number of the other coins you mentioned as well.
Are you getting close to your "day in the sun" - the day you place your 53(s) Jeff in an auction and see what that coin is really worth? I suspect your would enjoy spirited bidding.
Wondercoin >>
To say the least, the 61-D does leave room for improvement! But it is one of the better coins that I've seen.
Here is my 61-D and it sports an EDS strike and 4.50 steps!
Here are some closeup shots of the rim and letters! Check out the wide rim and how bold strucked the letters are! Does a coin like this exist in FS or perhaps 6 steps? It's likely so!
The mindset for FS Jefferson nickels is obscured for the time being. Raw, the 53-S would not do well! Perhaps a $1000! It will take some time, perhaps years before the majority of registrant FS nickel collectors realize just how crappy most of their coins are. Then another tier of grading will start with stricker guidelines to sort the mess out. If Jefferson's profile, the fields and the steps have nicks, abrasions, carbon spots, then they are flawed coins, they do not belong in MS65 to 67 holders.
If the strike is less than full than it's a misnomer.
The detail of my 53-S and 61-D says it all about collecting this series!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo: Nice coin, but, as you state, not FS. I've seen a number of 1960(d) and 1961(d) Jeffs in 4 1/2 steps. And, they are worth some dough even with 4 1/2 steps. But, the coins become immensely scarce, if not absolutely rare, in gem FS with a minimum of 5 steps. Those coins are few and far between.
But, your 61(d) is a nice "filler" in the meantime
Wondercoin
<< <i>"Here is my 61-D and it sports an EDS strike and 4.50 steps!"
Leo: Nice coin, but, as you state, not FS. I've seen a number of 1960(d) and 1961(d) Jeffs in 4 1/2 steps. And, they are worth some dough even with 4 1/2 steps. But, the coins become immensely scarce, if not absolutely rare, in gem FS with a minimum of 5 steps. Those coins are few and far between.
But, your 61(d) is a nice "filler" in the meantime
Wondercoin >>
Mitch
I can see you're in for the long haul before you'll see things from my prospective! lol My coin is 97% there, and I believe your coin is about 80% there. It's well known that most full step nickels after 1950 and before 1971 didn't strike up well with full steps until the dies wore down to the point to allow the metal flow to reach the steps! A very few, more than others. This is why the US mint has improved the design of the nickel so many times over the years.
This is why we have weak strikes with full steps and unfortunately, in slabs. lol The 53-S and 54-S are prime examples and they are not few and far in between! Locating a fully strucked example with 5 complete steps is the rare endeaver! I've sold a many of those misnomers with near full steps and it wouldn't surprise me that they made their ways into a few of those registry sets! One of the die charactoristics the 53-S had was heavy die polishing in the reverse upper right field! But I say "near" FS because they weren't complete 5 steps! They would have a minor nick or bridge in the steps and I sold them from $100 up over the years!
Corso has a fully stucked 54-S with 5 full steps and as you know, JHS has a couple, one from Mr Mint, Al Rosen which I assume in now the MS67 coin and the ANACS MS66 5 step coin! These coins are the most rare and should be the most desireable examples for the 54-S and not some misnomers with steps.
Be sure to give your assessment on your 61-D when it arrives! A coin of such magnitude needs to be discussed.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
they very often will be all banged up. Throw in the requirement for FS and it makes the
coins nearly impossible in many cases.
This, however, is really one of the attractions of the series; that you can collect it in
different qualities and price levels. While I'd agree that fully struck gems without full
steps are grossly undervalued, this in no way means that FS coins are overvalued. The
prices are set by supply and demand and collectors' tastes do change over time. There
is little doubt that quality is playing an increasingly important role in numismatics and
that FS's are one measure of quality to many Jefferson collectors. This seems unlikely
to change. Keep it in perspective; if collectors ever do decide that quality is unimport-
ant then most of some collections will be little more than pocket change.
<< <i> Keep it in perspective; if collectors ever do decide that quality is unimport-
ant then most of some collections will be little more than pocket change. >>
Hi Cladking
Shouldn't that read......'if collectors ever do decide that quality is important then most of today's registry collections...........? lol
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo: I have given my assessment no less than 2x already on this thread alone (now a 3rd). For what it is, the 61(d) is one of the cooler Jeffs I have seen. I have seen a few 1961(d) 4 1/2 steppers in my travels like your coin (they are certainly highly collectible) - but, I was fine with Nevadman's 61(d) as a PCGS Full Step coin (not to mention very high end for the grade).
Incidently, MS68 (Dave Schweitz) from the boards was presented the 61(d) a couple years ago in the former FS ANACS holder. He graded the coin "shot MS66FS" at the time (and still does). He feels the coin will quite possibly find its way into a PCGS-MS66FS holder in the years ahead. Time will tell
Wondercoin
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Thanks Dave - I believe the coin was the centerpiece of the Nevadaman collection and ranks among the handful of the neatest Jeff nickels in a holder today. Who knows - one day a room full of "deep pocket" collectors and dealers might be fighting for the prize Jeff nickels, just as they were for the prize Buffalos last week.
Wondercoin
<< <i>You have your own opinions as to what should be or not be a full step or what should constitute a certain grade. >>
And you have the right to express your opinions as well, no matter how far right or to the left you decide to be from my prospective! Is there a better way to illustrate other then showing another coin that is very problematic concerning the strike features!
This coin has the best steps that I've ever seen on a fully strucked 1955-D! Of course, better examples exist but I have yet to see another like it pictured or in hand. And I might add, I paid only 75 cents for this coin at my local coin shop. lol
If I ever decide to assemble my entire collection into a wall frame for public display, this is the coin I would want to show off and not some misnomer that lacks all the design details of the Jefferson nickel. This example should be one of the most desireable 55-D's to own but that's not happening with the way the TGC's and most FS nickel collectors grade and collect the FS nickels in today's coin market!
It's not an uncommon practice that the very few people who seemingly carry the most influence on the FS Jefferson nickels in our hobby today are the least educated when it comes to grading and collecting these coins! And I'll apologize here if anyone else's feelings are affected from my opinions!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo: Are we on to a NEW subject now? If so, the coolest 55(d) nickel I have ever seen was the Steve Pierce example that then went to Mr. Mint and is now in the JHF collection. A lovely PCGS-MS66FS coin. Your coin looks very nice as well - slab the coin so folks can talk with you and compare "apples to apples". It may be time to pour out your cookie jar of Jeffs
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>You have your own opinions as to what should be or not be a full step or what should constitute a certain grade. >>
And you have the right to express your opinions as well, no matter how far right or to the left you decide to be from my prospective! And I'll apologize here if anyone else's feelings are affected from my opinions!
Leo >>
Leo, we all know that we have the RIGHT to express opinions, but some opinions are better left unexpressed in certain situations. What the members are trying to tell you is that as a matter of good manners, we should keep our mouths shut on an open forum about someone else's seemingly bad purchase. That should be saved for private discussions while the owner is not around. The only time it is OK to criticize another's coin to the owner's face is if it is presented to you as a prospective buyer. This has nothing to do with coins, it has to do with good manners and common sense.
<< <i>"This coin has the best steps that I've ever seen on a fully strucked 1955-D!"
Leo: Are we on to a NEW subject now? If so, the coolest 55(d) nickel I have ever seen was the Steve Pierce example that then went to Mr. Mint and is now in the JHF collection. A lovely PCGS-MS66FS coin. Your coin looks very nice as well - slab the coin so folks can talk with you and compare "apples to apples". It may be time to pour out your cookie jar of Jeffs
Wondercoin >>
Not only would I like to see that coin, I would very much like having the chance to see Corso and JHF entire collections as well! Not that it would mean anything to anyone if I did but I would like seeing the coins! Nonetheless, I know Corso has quality taste in his collection because he has vocally turned away many high certified graded coins in the past. And I believe JHF is doing the very same thing now.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Can any of you remember the '58-P MS65FS in that sale? I looked long and hard on that one and was even considering asking someone to eyeball it for me (Mitch knows why). I sincerely hope that the coins were much better than the pictures that appeared in B&M but I couldn't see it from here. Thanks, Dave