ANA Pittsburg: The VAM perspective! (Loonnngggg!)
RobJoyce1921dVAMguy
Posts: 942 ✭✭
Here’s a perspective on the ANA show through the eyes of a die-hard VAM guy.
My second day (Friday) was my chance to really interact with some major VAM collectors. At 1:00 the Society of Silver Dollar Collectors met. President Jeff Oxman and Michael Fey, the Top 100 VAM book authors, co chaired the meeting. There is an effort to get the society revitalized and really provide educational opportunities and reference materials for everyone. Given all the questions posed to Wolf359, DaveWang, myself and others on this forum, I think there is definitely a need for easy access to the latest VAM info. Ash Harrington was introduced as the new secretary and is working on updating the SSDC web site. He has begun an effort to post all the new VAM discoveries to the web with a description and the photos Leroy Van Allen took of the coin. This will be a time consuming process but will be a huge help as there are hundreds of discoveries since the big VAM book was last published. He has also posted the “VAM hall of fame” that lists the person discovering each VAM. The beta for this information is posted at www.ashmore.com. Once complete, it will be part of the Society of Silver Dollar Collector’s website at www.vamlink.com. The SSDC members also discussed a push to make pricing guides. Michael Fey already publishes a quarterly price guide to the Top 100 VAMs. At the SSDC session they unveiled a new price guide for the Top 50 peace dollar VAMs. Others guides are in the works and will be available for the SSDC members: 50 Morgan VAMs, 1921-D VAMs, 8 tail feather Morgans, 79s rev 78 VAMs and others. Also announced was an intention to post registry sets for these areas.
At the session forum member David Wang handed out a single page attribution sheet that had a visual key to identifying all 79-S rev 78 coins except the newest discovery VAM-56. Larry Briggs exhibited his complete set of 79s rev 78 coins (in SEGS holders of course). There are several sets missing one or two VAMs, but this is the only one with every known variety of 79-S rev 78. Closing out the meeting was an exhibit of AMAZING 1878 8TF dollars. There were DMPL, PL, MS-65 coins. In addition to having wonderful 8TFs, there were many ultra rare vams (in the range 14.5 through 14.20) exhibited. This is the finest short set known.
Following the SSDC session, there was a talk at 4pm on “Understanding the advanced silver dollar market. Michael Fey talked about the evolution from collecting by date through collecting by mint mark and the recent trend acknowledging the rarity of varieties. This session was also well attended, besides Fey’s talk, Jeff Oxman, David Wang, Mark Kimpton and I all presented in our specialty areas. People were pumped up about VAMs by the end!
At the meetings I was able to meet many of the VAM legends that I've emailed with for years but have never shook hands with... Bill Fivaz, Mark Kimpton, Eric Justice, Ash Harrington, Mike Emiswiler, Mike Lucyk. It was also good to see Michael Fey, Jeff Oxman, Larry Briggs, Dan White, David Wang, Al Simons, Lewis Rosenbaum and other VAMers again.
My first day at the ANA (Thursday) was all about hitting the floor to find 1921-D varieties: my passion. I started around the floor and kept being told the 21-D coins were scanned the day before by other VAMers. I wasn't finding much, confirming these rumors. This is the down side of writing a book on a specialty area and educating others. However, I take it as a great sign that others have caught 1921-D fever!
My luck picked up mid-morning as I found an ANACS holder MS-63 unattributed VAM-1G Late die state. The late die states are a tough find. Sweet!
I found another table where they told me their 21-Ds were already checked. I looked anyway and had a good conversation with the dealer. “Ta-da” a box of coins in flips appeared with more 1921 Ds. It’s amazing what is lurking behind the tables of some booths. "Nobody looked at these." Music to my ears. Inside I found a VAM-1T Die break E LDS in AU55 and a VAM-1S die gouge "ED" of UNITED also AU-55. The final coin of interest had a die break on the D of UNITED that appears to be a new variety. The dealer was genuinely interested in my cracked and gouged 21-D die stories and admired the finds with me.
During my walk around the bourse someone noticed my name tag “Rob Joyce” and instantly recognized me as the “21-D guy.” It was Cranky and he introduced me to a couple other board members. Unlike his handle, I found him anything but cranky!
From there I "reexamined" a lot of 21-Ds following in the footsteps of others with no success. I looked at a lot of 21-S coins along with the 21-Ds. I did find a 21-S VAM-1A die gouge in the BU of PLURIBUS. This is readily available and can be found with a little hunting. It is a nice large and deep die gouge so I like the variety. Larry Briggs had shown me one earlier in the day that had a "phantom S" mint mark. This coin was also missing the mint mark. It appears some die state of the VAM-1A has a filled mint mark. Although I looked at a lot of 21-S coins, I didn't see a single thorn head variety. These are the VAM-1B1 through VAM-1B7 coins that have an amazing series of gouges inflicted on the die and then polished away. I can usually find the most common variety, the 1921-S VAM-1B6 but I came up dry on all thornhead stages at the ANA. If you are curious about the thornheads, check out more details here:
http://www.rjrc.com/vams/1921_s_vam_1b.htm
My 21-D and D finds were all made before lunch and I was finding nothing as the day went on. I gave up, feeling pretty tired and decided to look at something else. I began digging in a large junk box of circ Morgans. Half way though there was nothing of interest. I finally found an 88-O Oval O and was so happy to find any variety…after all the work. I put it aside even though it was cleaned. Sometimes I just can't bear to put back a cherrypick even if it is a problem coin. VAMing is a sickness ;-) Things got much better in the next few minutes. I pulled out an 1887 VAM-1A Donkey Tail die break! It was a very nice original XF coin with a late die state break. Unfortunately the reverse has a couple rim hits, evidently from being tumbled into this junk box as they are nice and fresh, not slightly toned like the rest of the coin. In any event it was a keeper! I continued rummaging through the box and found another die break... An 1880P VAM-1A knobbed 8. It too was a late die state with a nice knob coming off the 8. This was also an XF coin with no problems.
I continued to walk the floor and checked some peace dollars. My streak continued and I discovered a 1924 VAM-5A wing break. The coin is low end MS with some hairlines.
I had an amazing day at the ANA and the best -by far- cherry picking session ever!
Oh yeah, one non-VAM note that will interest some of the peace dollar guys. During the day, a friend pulled a peace dollar out of his pocket: PCGS MS-67 1935-S... check that one in the pop report it says 0/0 right now ;-) Rumor has it that it went for $40K!
Can you tell I had a great time?!?
Rob
My second day (Friday) was my chance to really interact with some major VAM collectors. At 1:00 the Society of Silver Dollar Collectors met. President Jeff Oxman and Michael Fey, the Top 100 VAM book authors, co chaired the meeting. There is an effort to get the society revitalized and really provide educational opportunities and reference materials for everyone. Given all the questions posed to Wolf359, DaveWang, myself and others on this forum, I think there is definitely a need for easy access to the latest VAM info. Ash Harrington was introduced as the new secretary and is working on updating the SSDC web site. He has begun an effort to post all the new VAM discoveries to the web with a description and the photos Leroy Van Allen took of the coin. This will be a time consuming process but will be a huge help as there are hundreds of discoveries since the big VAM book was last published. He has also posted the “VAM hall of fame” that lists the person discovering each VAM. The beta for this information is posted at www.ashmore.com. Once complete, it will be part of the Society of Silver Dollar Collector’s website at www.vamlink.com. The SSDC members also discussed a push to make pricing guides. Michael Fey already publishes a quarterly price guide to the Top 100 VAMs. At the SSDC session they unveiled a new price guide for the Top 50 peace dollar VAMs. Others guides are in the works and will be available for the SSDC members: 50 Morgan VAMs, 1921-D VAMs, 8 tail feather Morgans, 79s rev 78 VAMs and others. Also announced was an intention to post registry sets for these areas.
At the session forum member David Wang handed out a single page attribution sheet that had a visual key to identifying all 79-S rev 78 coins except the newest discovery VAM-56. Larry Briggs exhibited his complete set of 79s rev 78 coins (in SEGS holders of course). There are several sets missing one or two VAMs, but this is the only one with every known variety of 79-S rev 78. Closing out the meeting was an exhibit of AMAZING 1878 8TF dollars. There were DMPL, PL, MS-65 coins. In addition to having wonderful 8TFs, there were many ultra rare vams (in the range 14.5 through 14.20) exhibited. This is the finest short set known.
Following the SSDC session, there was a talk at 4pm on “Understanding the advanced silver dollar market. Michael Fey talked about the evolution from collecting by date through collecting by mint mark and the recent trend acknowledging the rarity of varieties. This session was also well attended, besides Fey’s talk, Jeff Oxman, David Wang, Mark Kimpton and I all presented in our specialty areas. People were pumped up about VAMs by the end!
At the meetings I was able to meet many of the VAM legends that I've emailed with for years but have never shook hands with... Bill Fivaz, Mark Kimpton, Eric Justice, Ash Harrington, Mike Emiswiler, Mike Lucyk. It was also good to see Michael Fey, Jeff Oxman, Larry Briggs, Dan White, David Wang, Al Simons, Lewis Rosenbaum and other VAMers again.
My first day at the ANA (Thursday) was all about hitting the floor to find 1921-D varieties: my passion. I started around the floor and kept being told the 21-D coins were scanned the day before by other VAMers. I wasn't finding much, confirming these rumors. This is the down side of writing a book on a specialty area and educating others. However, I take it as a great sign that others have caught 1921-D fever!
My luck picked up mid-morning as I found an ANACS holder MS-63 unattributed VAM-1G Late die state. The late die states are a tough find. Sweet!
I found another table where they told me their 21-Ds were already checked. I looked anyway and had a good conversation with the dealer. “Ta-da” a box of coins in flips appeared with more 1921 Ds. It’s amazing what is lurking behind the tables of some booths. "Nobody looked at these." Music to my ears. Inside I found a VAM-1T Die break E LDS in AU55 and a VAM-1S die gouge "ED" of UNITED also AU-55. The final coin of interest had a die break on the D of UNITED that appears to be a new variety. The dealer was genuinely interested in my cracked and gouged 21-D die stories and admired the finds with me.
During my walk around the bourse someone noticed my name tag “Rob Joyce” and instantly recognized me as the “21-D guy.” It was Cranky and he introduced me to a couple other board members. Unlike his handle, I found him anything but cranky!
From there I "reexamined" a lot of 21-Ds following in the footsteps of others with no success. I looked at a lot of 21-S coins along with the 21-Ds. I did find a 21-S VAM-1A die gouge in the BU of PLURIBUS. This is readily available and can be found with a little hunting. It is a nice large and deep die gouge so I like the variety. Larry Briggs had shown me one earlier in the day that had a "phantom S" mint mark. This coin was also missing the mint mark. It appears some die state of the VAM-1A has a filled mint mark. Although I looked at a lot of 21-S coins, I didn't see a single thorn head variety. These are the VAM-1B1 through VAM-1B7 coins that have an amazing series of gouges inflicted on the die and then polished away. I can usually find the most common variety, the 1921-S VAM-1B6 but I came up dry on all thornhead stages at the ANA. If you are curious about the thornheads, check out more details here:
http://www.rjrc.com/vams/1921_s_vam_1b.htm
My 21-D and D finds were all made before lunch and I was finding nothing as the day went on. I gave up, feeling pretty tired and decided to look at something else. I began digging in a large junk box of circ Morgans. Half way though there was nothing of interest. I finally found an 88-O Oval O and was so happy to find any variety…after all the work. I put it aside even though it was cleaned. Sometimes I just can't bear to put back a cherrypick even if it is a problem coin. VAMing is a sickness ;-) Things got much better in the next few minutes. I pulled out an 1887 VAM-1A Donkey Tail die break! It was a very nice original XF coin with a late die state break. Unfortunately the reverse has a couple rim hits, evidently from being tumbled into this junk box as they are nice and fresh, not slightly toned like the rest of the coin. In any event it was a keeper! I continued rummaging through the box and found another die break... An 1880P VAM-1A knobbed 8. It too was a late die state with a nice knob coming off the 8. This was also an XF coin with no problems.
I continued to walk the floor and checked some peace dollars. My streak continued and I discovered a 1924 VAM-5A wing break. The coin is low end MS with some hairlines.
I had an amazing day at the ANA and the best -by far- cherry picking session ever!
Oh yeah, one non-VAM note that will interest some of the peace dollar guys. During the day, a friend pulled a peace dollar out of his pocket: PCGS MS-67 1935-S... check that one in the pop report it says 0/0 right now ;-) Rumor has it that it went for $40K!
Can you tell I had a great time?!?
Rob
0
Comments
Thorn Head - 7 die states known and counting.
Edited to add: You caught the missing link.
Free Trial
I can confirm the $40K price on the 1935-S MS67 Peace dollar; I spoke to the buyer and he 'fessed up!
The grey sheet, by the way, shows an Ask price of $11K -- which seems absurd beyond reason, considering no MS67 example existed until it was "made" at the ANA show.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Cheers.
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
Free Trial
<< <i>At the session forum member David Wang handed out a single page attribution sheet that had a visual key to identifying all 79-S rev 78 coins except the newest discovery VAM-56. Larry Briggs exhibited his complete set of 79s rev 78 coins (in SEGS holders of course). There are several sets missing one or two VAMs, but this is the only one with every known variety of 79-S rev 78. >>
Larry found two VAM 56's and traded one to Jeff Oxman, so now Jeff has a complete set as well. That's why Jeff keeps on saying "This is one of two compelte sets known". Grr.....
<< <i>I had an amazing day at the ANA and the best -by far- cherry picking session ever! >>
What Rob didn't mention was that his cherry picking put all the other VAM cherry pickers to shame, and Jeff Oxman's prize to "best cherry picks at the ANA show" was by unanimous consent given to Rob. The prize is a copy of the orignal VAM book by Leroy Van Allen. Rob, was it from 1965 or 1973?
<< <i>Can you tell I had a great time?!?
Rob >>
My day was just hectic. Drive to Pittsburgh. Rush in. SSDC meeting. rush out. 1.5 hours on the floor. Picked nothing. Numismatic Presentations at 4PM. back on the floor at 5:30 near closing, meandered around for another 30 minutes.... Time to go home.... Another 3.5~4 hours on the road... In the rain...
More Grrrr.....
I did manage to buy one 1879s Reverse of 1878 Morgan...
This NGC MS60
Boy, prices have really climbed, haven't they?
The Leroy Van Allen variety book is the 1965 version. Very cool to look back on the state of knowedge and how it has grown.
For those of you feeling bad for David, his expensive 1879-S Rev 78 coin is the finest known VAM-6... a very tough coin.
While David didn't ***take home*** any cherry picks, he cherried the coin during his visit to the ANA. He just had to wait to bid! Its only a technicality that he can tell that sob story
Great find David.
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
The finest known VAM 6 is owned by another collector, and it's an MS64. Previously that was the only UNC known to exist. This coin at the ANA show is the second UNC known to exist, but it's considerably lower in terms of grade.
Congrats on a good show. That was a fine job picking up all those coins.
I didn't see a scarface for sale. Ash Harrington brought one to the Society of Sillver Dollar Collector meeting. Very nice MS in a cool custom holder. Its a great coin with a HUGE break.
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
Free Trial
I can't swear there were none to be had on the floor, but I didn't see any! I did cover the floor and asked for VAMs at most locations. Its a great coin and I love it!
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
You can join the Soceity of Silver Dollar Collectors by contacting new board memeber Ash Harrington (the guy listed above bringing the scarface!) via PM or at ash@ashmore.com. He's the director of membership for the SSDC.
Mailing Address: SSDC, P.O. Box 42112, Greensboro, NC 27425
Membership in the SSDC is $19.95/year
Benefits include consultation, collaboration, SSDC Journal, SSDC Reports, VAM-E e-mail Web Site: vamlink.com
There are big plans to really get the SSDC invigorated this year. I know we had a GREAT ANA meeting. Would love to see you and others join.
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
<< <i>matteproof: One sold on eBay in the last 10 days at $5,500. PCGS MS62. >>
It sold with a BIN of $5500, less than a day after it was listed. Wow.
link
I have a 1921 coin that looks like that, but it was a planchet defect. Maybe worth $10.
Ash HARRISON here. I just wanted to add a couple things to this thread. I wanted to let you know that after the SSDC meeting Friday I cherried about 25 coins, including an 1896-O Micro in VG8. I was pleased. I picked up another 3-4 O/CCs and 2-3 80-O VAM 6A's . I think there were several others, but I never found the horned D/new variety I told you about, and I didn't buy the 10A.
OK, so on to the scarface. After looking at your ANACS 62 , and having seen several of these coins, I fully believe this coin to be 63 worthy. Mine I'm sure is a 62, no more. I saw a PCGS 63 that was no better than mine, and a SEGS 63 that was very worthy of the grade. $4500 would buy the SEGS. Anyway, I'm looking forward to all types of VAMTALK here...
Ash Harrison
Director of Membership, SSDC
President, Society of Silver Dollar Collectors
Governor, National Silver Dollar Roundtable
President, Ashmore Rare Coins