Is there a way to naturally tone coins?

coinguy89 · August 19, 2004 6:55AM

Where would one store a coin to try to get natural toning to appear, and how long would it take to get some color on one? Im just thinking ballpark.

Russ · August 19, 2004 6:58AM

Stick them in a canvas bag and store them in a vault for 80 years.

Russ, NCNE

nwcs · August 19, 2004 7:02AM

Depends on many many factors. You can use envelopes, old books, bags, etc. The results are random and the time needed to get results is random. In some experiments I saw one coin get a lot of toning in around a year. Some in the exact same place from the same original roll only have a few dark spots otherwise white.

TWQG · August 19, 2004 7:05AM

I've heard that dad's attic works fine.

cbrchris · August 19, 2004 7:05AM

What about a glove compartment in a vehicle during the summer when the temperature inside a vehicle is like 140 degrees or so in the desert.

CarlWohlforth · August 19, 2004 7:08AM

Some of us have purchased Wayte Raymond albums. I put mine in a drawer and there has been no change over the past year. CosmicDebris put his album in the bathroom if I remember his post correctly and his are developing some nice rim toning. Using albums should produce toning that people recognize as natural. I think the humidity helps things along.

AuldFartte · August 19, 2004 7:18AM

<< CosmicDebris put his album in the bathroom >>

ew ...

Baley · August 19, 2004 7:56AM

<< CosmicDebris put his album in the bathroom >>

"This book's been flagged... it's been in the bathroom"

Brentano's bookstore clerk to George, on Seinfeld

CarlWohlforth · August 19, 2004 7:59AM

I hope I remembered that right... it could be embarassing for me if I misquoted CD..

robertpr · August 19, 2004 8:14AM

The difference between NT and AT is intent so even if you got it to "naturally" tone, it would still be artificial, unless you did so by pure accident or carelessness, in which case it would be natural, unless of course you were purposefully careless

islemangu · August 19, 2004 8:35AM

between NT and AT is intent so even if you got it to "naturally" tone, it would still be artificial, unless you did so by pure accident or carelessness, in which case it would be natural, unless of course you were purposefully careless

Are they still using the polygraphs with submittals on the big money ones

relayer · August 19, 2004 9:22AM

If we told you, then everybody would do it

robertpr · August 19, 2004 10:14AM

Are they still using the polygraphs with submittals on the big money ones

No, they're putting the coins they don't like into bodybags that say "artificially toned", which of course contradicts what they say they do.

If they did what they say then the bags would be labelled Market Unacceptable, which means "we don't like your coin".

I personally don't think they should even try to make judgement calls on the color. Just grade the darn things, and slab them regardless of color, and let the market decide.

TUMUSS · August 19, 2004 10:17AM

<< The difference between NT and AT is intent so even if you got it to "naturally" tone, it would still be artificial, unless you did so by pure accident or carelessness, in which case it would be natural, unless of course you were purposefully careless

>>

I disagree. If I put a roll of SAE's in my garage to tone them up....and 5 years later they have some cool colors (all be this my INTENT) THIS IS NOT AT.

mirabela · August 19, 2004 10:28AM

I think it was humor. If a coin is toned in such a way as happens over time w/o intent, whether or not it was intentional, chances are the market will accept the coin.

Chance are the market will never accept my current experiment in this field, a brutally whizzed common Morgan which is sitting in a box full of agricultural sulfur over the heating element on my pet snake's cage. It is quickly turning glossy brown.

darktone · August 19, 2004 10:35AM

I was at Madison coin and stamp a couple of weeks ago and I told the obnoxious clerk I was looking for toned coins and he replied that they just came out with a "new chemical that would tone coins so you could not tell the difference". Maybe give this guy a call and he could help you out

. mike

TUMUSS · August 19, 2004 10:35AM

<< Chance are the market will never accept my current experiment in this field, a brutally whizzed common Morgan which is sitting in a box full of agricultural sulfur over the heating element on my pet snake's cage. It is quickly turning glossy brown. >>

Well at least it is not your intent to AT that thing!!!!

fountainheadgold · August 19, 2004 10:38AM

I disagree. If I put a roll of SAE's in my garage to tone them up....and 5 years later they have some cool colors (all be this my INTENT) THIS IS NOT AT. >>

of course its AT

TUMUSS · August 19, 2004 10:40AM

No chemicals...no heat....just plain old fashion sittin! I DISAGREE!

Neptune · August 19, 2004 10:43AM

according to Websters: artificial means: 'not natural' or 'simulated' - so I guess it would depend on what you did to them before you put them in the garage ...... if you just generally use your garage for storing coins and they were in paper, bag or book that tones anyway, then it would not be AT. IMHO Chemicals and cooking is not natural for coins, therefore AT.

kryptonitecomics · August 19, 2004 10:44AM

I was always fasinated with the beautiful rainbow toned proof coins so I tried my own experiment. I took a nice 1964 Proof quarter in at least Proof 68 condition along with about 6 BU State Quarters from different states and I placed them between the folds or a normal newspaper. I then set the newspaper in the window for what I would guess was at least a year.

The newspaper is completely yellow now, most of the State Quarters toned a nice blue or gold color, but that darn Proof Quarter is stilll blast white

FrattLaw · August 19, 2004 10:47AM

<< The difference between NT and AT is intent so even if you got it to "naturally" tone, it would still be artificial >>

No it's not. The real definition of what is AT should be replication and time. If I place a dozen brillant white Roosevelt dimes into a Wayte Raymond Album for 5 years, how many do you think will tone so nicely that I'll be able to sell them for a premium??? One, maybe two, if I'm lucky. My intent is to have a whole album full of nicely toned Roosies, but that's just not going to happen. Placing a coin into an album is a proper means of storing that coin, according to hobby standards, why should doing what is "normal" change a NT coin to an AT coin all because I hoped they would tone???

Now, if I had a "process" where I could tone an album full of Roosies so that 90% were all toned beautifully and worth a huge premium and I could do it in 5 days. Now we have AT.

Michael

majorbigtime · August 19, 2004 11:44AM

Yes, there is a way but I keep it confidential!

Russellp23 · August 19, 2004 11:58AM

<< 

<< The difference between NT and AT is intent so even if you got it to "naturally" tone, it would still be artificial >>

No it's not. The real definition of what is AT should be replication and time. If I place a dozen brillant white Roosevelt dimes into a Wayte Raymond Album for 5 years, how many do you think will tone so nicely that I'll be able to sell them for a premium??? One, maybe two, if I'm lucky. My intent is to have a whole album full of nicely toned Roosies, but that's just not going to happen. Placing a coin into an album is a proper means of storing that coin, according to hobby standards, why should doing what is "normal" change a NT coin to an AT coin all because I hoped they would tone???

Now, if I had a "process" where I could tone an album full of Roosies so that 90% were all toned beautifully and worth a huge premium and I could do it in 5 days. Now we have AT.

Michael >>

:frattlaw;

robertpr · August 19, 2004 12:39PM

I disagree. If I put a roll of SAE's in my garage to tone them up....and 5 years later they have some cool colors (all be this my INTENT) THIS IS NOT AT.

If I take a roll of SAE's and spread them out on a cookie sheet, then I just happen to place them into a 400 degree oven...and 5 minutes later they have some cool colors (all be this my INTENT) THIS IS NOT AT.

Of course, either scenario clearly is AT. In both instances, the perp is placing the coin in an environment where they know the coin will tone.

FrattLaw · August 19, 2004 2:00PM

<< the perp is placing the coin in an environment where they know the coin will tone >>

Robert -- very interesting, are you're saying placing a coin into an album or a garage is analogous with committing a crime??? How many toning experiments have you been successful with performing. I can assure you that there's no guaranty that placing a coin in ANY album will result in toning. I've search dozens of complete album sets and not all the coins are toned. Some might have natural, albeit, unattractive toning. Perhaps 1 or 2 out of dozens of coins might have attractive toning.

Why does intent matter. I went to the bank today. My intent was to rob it, but I didn't, am I still guilty of bank robbery. Sorry but IMHO, intent isn't enough.

Michael

Murphy · August 19, 2004 2:23PM

I've got some silver Washington quarters in an old Whitman folder. They've been there for 2 to 3 years and were blast white last time I saw them. I looked at them today for the first time since I put them in there and was surprised to see that most were 25%-30% toned.

airplanenut · August 19, 2004 2:46PM

<< I disagree. If I put a roll of SAE's in my garage to tone them up....and 5 years later they have some cool colors (all be this my INTENT) THIS IS NOT AT.

If I take a roll of SAE's and spread them out on a cookie sheet, then I just happen to place them into a 400 degree oven...and 5 minutes later they have some cool colors (all be this my INTENT) THIS IS NOT AT.

Of course, either scenario clearly is AT. In both instances, the perp is placing the coin in an environment where they know the coin will tone. >>

I think SAEs are a poor example--the 99.9% silver content is so reactive that any storage location other than an airtite or slab will result in toning. I've got some eagles that are toning having just sat in non-PVC flips for a few years in a humidity-controlled environment. Put eagles in an album with some humidity, and the color will come, just because.

Jeremy

TUMUSS · August 19, 2004 3:14PM

<< I disagree. If I put a roll of SAE's in my garage to tone them up....and 5 years later they have some cool colors (all be this my INTENT) THIS IS NOT AT.

If I take a roll of SAE's and spread them out on a cookie sheet, then I just happen to place them into a 400 degree oven...and 5 minutes later they have some cool colors (all be this my INTENT) THIS IS NOT AT.

Of course, either scenario clearly is AT. In both instances, the perp is placing the coin in an environment where they know the coin will tone. >>

ALL I CAN SAY IS:

1) I disagree with you!
2) ...AND SO DOES PCGS!!!!

Ps. Cookie sheet and an oven is a lame comparison.

wjd283 · August 19, 2004 3:28PM

I've got an 1889 Morgan that was blast white and the pick of about 60 coins.I put it in a 2 x 2 paper envelope and sat it over my monitor on a shelf on my desk to send off for grading.Left it there for about 6 weeks.When I finally remembered it.I took it out and now it's oddly toned and somewhat ugly.

AT or NT ??

Baley · August 19, 2004 3:47PM

I've got an 1889 Morgan that was blast white and the pick of about 60 coins.I put it in a 2 x 2 paper envelope and sat it over my monitor on a shelf on my desk to send off for grading.Left it there for about 6 weeks.When I finally remembered it.I took it out and now it's oddly toned and somewhat ugly.

AT or NT ??

Yes it is. or, if you prefer, "in between"

I find it humorous that folks constantly assume that every toned coin must be "either NT or AT" as if those were two black and white choices.

the album, envelope, and roll storage questions in this and other threads are controversial precisely because they are varying degrees of "in between" 100% NT (authentic bag toned Morgans that were completely accidental and took 70+ years) and 100% AT (baked with chemicals in an oven this morning)

the roll, envelope, and album toned coins are somewhere in between, in both duration and intent

whether they are 25% or 75% NT, i guess, depends on a combination of A) how long it took, longer is better

the intent of the storer, "accidental" is better, and C)how "natural" the results look to the experienced eye.

why is this concept of "a matter of degree" so difficult for some to understand (not picking on you, wjd, I know you picked your example to illustrate this point) and why do some insist that every coin "either it is or it isn't"?

braddick · August 19, 2004 9:14PM

Maybe PCGS should designate a coin, "Partial AT". In other words, under certain 'toning' condtions coupled with 'intent', maybe the coin is 60% (or, whatever...) naturally toned and 40% artifically toned.

That would make for a fun insert.

dorkkarl · August 19, 2004 9:21PM

<< Is there a way to naturally tone coins? >>

yes. of course there is.

K S

KenzoT · August 19, 2004 10:20PM

There are some beautifully toned dollars in the hoard I am priviledged to be going through. Granddad placed a 3/4 inch piece of paper with date/mintmark in each roll and sealed them with tape. The top coins where the paper resided are great except the paper left its mark differently under it than around it.
I'm going back this afternoon for a few more hours of sheer delight in the bank vault, I'll try to get some photos.
PS, these have been sealed and unseen for 80 years or more.

bushmaster8 · August 19, 2004 10:51PM

Sure, here is one I intentionally toned. It is indistinguishable from a "naturally toned" coin because I use old mint set cardboard to do the deed. It is lovely, and PCGS agrees!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3923583238&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:IT Link to toner

This is my first attempt at a link, so if it doesn't work, just go to ebay and search for the item number:
3923583238

Lightside · August 19, 2004 11:18PM

I AT some coins, not to sell or show off, but for my own personal enjoyment. Here is how I just AT toned some of the 2004 Jefferson handshake and keel boat nickels. (They came out in marvelous blue, purple and orange, red lavender colors)

I purchased some "Goo-gone", a orange oil based gunk, grease, gum remover. I took a small metal bowl and tipped it upside down and placed it in the oven. I squirted a puddle of goo gone on the bowl and placed the nickels in the puddle. I than placed a second bowl over the top of the first bowl to cover the coins. (this is done to stop the top side of the coin from burning and leaving a ugly residue of goo gone on its surface. I than cook the bowls in the oven at 300 degrees for one hour.

WOW, you oughta see the beautiful colors that appear in one hour. (not all the coins will tone, but 2 or 3 out of five will tone nicely, usually one will be fantastic.)

I nornally just do a few coins and display them on my desk. Why? Because when I'm working, that beautiful deep bluepurple portrait of Jefferson catches my eye and inspires me to more worthy endeavors.

That's it, no profit motive, just pure enjoyment.

boyhowdy · August 20, 2004 1:57AM

Get an old Oberhausen folder (1938) and put your whities in there.

After a few weeks you get a crescent of gold. Leave it in there for a while
and you will get the whole rainbow effect.

Steve

coinguy89 · August 20, 2004 4:53AM

<< Maybe PCGS should designate a coin, "Partial AT". In other words, under certain 'toning' condtions coupled with 'intent', maybe the coin is 60% (or, whatever...) naturally toned and 40% artifically toned.

That would make for a fun insert. >>

That would make for a great idea. Thanks for bringing up that Baley, about them being partly or fully toned.

cosmicdebris · August 20, 2004 10:17AM

Yep Wayte Raymond Album in the Bathroom hanging on a towel rack after a year.

jom · August 20, 2004 11:58PM

<< why is this concept of "a matter of degree" so difficult for some to understand (not picking on you, wjd, I know you picked your example to illustrate this point) and why do some insist that every coin "either it is or it isn't"? >>

That makes perfect sense. In fact, I'll go a step further. Since it seems most toned coins are somewhere "in between" then I would ask the simple question: Does it really matter whether it's AT or not? It is a legitimate question IMO since the term "AT" isn't really well DEFINED.

<< Maybe PCGS should designate a coin, "Partial AT". In other words, under certain 'toning' condtions coupled with 'intent', maybe the coin is 60% (or, whatever...) naturally toned and 40% artifically toned. >>

That's too funny Pat. Are you suggesting PCGS go into the business of READING MINDS? I guess they'll now have to employ a Tarot Card reader!

jom

majorbigtime · August 21, 2004 12:05AM

"Is there a way to naturally tone coins?"

I guess so, otherwise naturally toned coins would not exist!!!

robertpr · August 21, 2004 12:29AM

Yes it is. or, if you prefer, "in between"

I find it humorous that folks constantly assume that every toned coin must be "either NT or AT" as if those were two black and white choices.

the album, envelope, and roll storage questions in this and other threads are controversial precisely because they are varying degrees of "in between" 100% NT (authentic bag toned Morgans that were completely accidental and took 70+ years) and 100% AT (baked with chemicals in an oven this morning)

the roll, envelope, and album toned coins are somewhere in between, in both duration and intent

whether they are 25% or 75% NT, i guess, depends on a combination of A) how long it took, longer is better the intent of the storer, "accidental" is better, and C)how "natural" the results look to the experienced eye.

why is this concept of "a matter of degree" so difficult for some to understand (not picking on you, wjd, I know you picked your example to illustrate this point) and why do some insist that every coin "either it is or it isn't"?

I agree with the above 100%! I was just trying to illustrate a point.

Is there a way to naturally tone coins?

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