Pardon my ignorance, but is syzygy3.14 also known on Ebay as 'slabbed'? Or did syzygy3.14 sell Slabbed the O'rourke before it went on Ebay as a PSA 8? Either way, Wolfbears post is alarming to say the least.
<< <i>Pardon my ignorance, but is syzygy3.14 also known on Ebay as 'slabbed'? Or did syzygy3.14 sell Slabbed the O'rourke before it went on Ebay as a PSA 8? Either way, Wolfbears post is alarming to say the least. >>
pardon my ignorance as well.. so is this PSA 8 suspicioned as a former PSA 6?
When the BGS Mark Prior scandal broke out earlier this year, I swore off BGS graded cards. I simply lost complete faith in what they did. To see this one person (that we know of) basically make his living buying/trimming and selling PSA, BGS, SGC and GAI cards has shaken my belief in the system to the very core.
PSA needs to crack down on this. They need to crack down on this YESTERDAY. I don't care how many submissions this guy sends in a year. No amount of money they generate from this one submitter can offset the embarassment of a scandal like this. If they have a submission where a large number of the cards graded are not slabbed due to 'evidence of trimming', they should return all the cards, charge the person full price and let them know they could not encapsulate the cards. Force these people to take their business elsewhere. After a few submissions, they'll give up quickly on using PSA as their vehicle of choice to rip off others.
Some innocent submitters may be affected by this, but not too many. All I know is something HAS to be done.
Pick6, Earlier this year, some board members posted a thread concerning a SP Mark Prior RC that was originally graded a BGS 9 and then magically turned into a BGS 10 after some doctoring. Good thing for us the low life who trimmed the card was unable to doctor the serial number on the card.
I thought the name of the guy sounded familiar. I guess he got sick and tired of mickey mousing around with PRO and GEM and decided to grab the big bucks and use PSA instead. Talk about being handed the keys to the vault.
If PSA does something like take this thread down, I can't imagine a reason why a sane person would continue to support the company. By bringing this to light, the forum members are helping PSA crack down on the scammers. To pull this thread would be like cops shooting eyewitnesses and victims to a crime instead of going after the criminals.
That being said, to answer your question, 12 hours.
<< <i>sorry for my not seeing this clearly but again what is slabbed doing ? submitting trimmed cards and getting them graded ?
aloof >>
Well guys, I asked this question at the Set Registry luncheon (sorry that my question wasn't louder), and "poof" here is the perfect example of what I was talking about. I don't expect this thread to last much past 9:00 AM PST, (thankfully I've just saved it to my machine, and suggest other do so as well), but this problem is only going to get worse. It's happening with both modern and vintage cards, and it's a problem that needs to be addressed NOW rather than later.
EDIT: Please note that the serial # on the card leads me to belive that it was graded at the National (I've got a couple of cards from that series).
EDIT #2: Whoops, he even admits in the auction description that it was graded at the National. Shouldn't be too hard for PSA to figure out who graded it then.
If you turn on your PM and profile functions you'd be doing yourself a big favor. A lot of the "information" that is passed around on these boards is done one on one. You'll get quicker (more honest) answers to your questions, and you'll learn much, much more about the problem topics that don't seem to last long on the boards.
As for the card doctors, I agee... it's the single biggest problem facing the hobby. It's also a tuff situation, because the grading companies are not set up to police the hobby. Unfortunately, No one is.
It's almost impossible to prove anything based upon ebay transactions, scans, and submission records... It would take a small "task force" to actually (legally) prove the things that seem fairly obvious to us.
All we can do at this point in the game is complain.... and if enough people keep pointing these things out and complaining loud enough, someday it will get easier to stop these guys.
schr1st - I recall you asking that question at the Registry luncheon at the National. If I recall Joe's answer correctly, his main points were :
1. When some of the cards on a submission appear altered, all of the cards are scrutanized more closely. 2. If it starts to become a reoccuring problem with certain dealers, they are contacted and questioned. 3. Telling a dealer they can no longer submit would do no good, since they can always submit through others.
I'm afraid these guys are so good at what they do, that there is no easy solution ...
The first two responses are excellent and a good step towards cleaning up the hobby.
Response #3 doesn't wash.
If submitters knew that after a second warning they would be banned from submitting to PSA, then who in their right mind would allow a trimmer to submit through his name ?
If I knew that my PSA priviledges could be removed forever, would I ever allow a trimmer to submit through me ?
I can understand a guy who bought sets in the 80's and has some trimmed cards in his vintage collection. But what about a guy who continously submits cards that have 1990's, 1980's, 1970's, and 1960's cards that are trimmed ? These people should be more closely monitered.
Sorry, but reason #3 doesn't wash one bit.
PSA is THE ONLY source to police this hobby. Repeat.... PSA is THE ONLY source to police this fraud.
<< <i>how are the trimmed cards getting passed the graders ? i thought that was there job, meaning to catch these things. aloof >>
Aloof,
You are correct. It is their job. It is their job to catch the alterations. If they are not catching the alterations, they are not doing their job properly.
Cracking down on the submitters of altered material is not the solution to the problem. The solution is to make sure that the PSA graders are doing their job properly. There's no reason to be angry with Gerry Schwartz or Gary Moser. You should be angry with PSA for not properly doing their job and catching the alterations. This is absolutely unacceptable.
Actually, I'm angry with both the submitters (I honestly wish very bad things would happen to them), and with PSA for not catching it.
<< <i>
<< <i>how are the trimmed cards getting passed the graders ? i thought that was there job, meaning to catch these things. aloof >>
Aloof,
You are correct. It is their job. It is their job to catch the alterations. If they are not catching the alterations, they are not doing their job properly.
Cracking down on the submitters of altered material is not the solution to the problem. The solution is to make sure that the PSA graders are doing their job properly. There's no reason to be angry with Gerry Schwartz or Gary Moser. You should be angry with PSA for not properly doing their job and catching the alterations. This is absolutely unacceptable. >>
<< <i>There's no reason to be angry with Gerry Schwartz or Gary Moser. >>
You can't seriously mean this.
My apartment was robbed two years ago. I should not be angry with the thiefs who broke into my house and stole all my valuables, but rather my apartment security and law enforcement for not guarding my apartment?
aloof1003 -- It's really hard to tell what exactly changed based on those scans, especially since the first scan is fuzzy, but I would not assume that the card in question was trimmed. In many cases a card with 4 strong corners and a slight surface wrinkle will get a PSA 6. If the wrinkle was removed, which some have claimed on various message boards can be done without detection, then that may explain what happened in this instance. Some collectors have no scrupples about repairing wrinkles, while most, like me do object since these techniques have never been proven to be permanent repairs to the problem nor do the people who repair these cards ever disclose these modifications.
What types of written guarantees and security are provided by the apartment management? Do they claim to provide the country's tightest security? If so, those thieves must have been among the world's elite, covering their tracks at every step.
The analogy I've drawn compares your apartment security to the PSA graders. Obviously, the better the "security" the less chance a "burglary" will occur.
That being said, all grading companies make mistakes. It is what they do to correct those mistakes that is important.
Murcerfan just wrote: "There were no wrinkles on that card"
Murcerfan also wrote on his eBay description: "A very nice card for the harsh grade. the clean back is also well centered.....mini ticks show on 2 corners under magnification"
So Dave (murcerfan), if it had no wrinkles and it only had two tiny touches, and the centering didn't knock it down, then why was it a PSA 6 in the first place? By your description it sounds like an 8.
The scan of the PSA 6 on the first page of the thread is fuzzy because it appears that it was enlarged for a side by side comparison.
I just made high resolution print outs of the original scan, the PSA 6 (slightly smaller, but clearly sharper) and the larger scan, the PSA 8. Using a dial caliper, I measured the ratios of the card sizes on my print outs and the smaller one measured 2.100 x 3.020 = 0.694 and the larger one, the PSA 8 measured 2.380 x 3.420 = 0.696. To me, those numbers are too close to draw a conclusion that it was trimmed. I also did measurements of the Left and Right Borders and the ratios ended up being nearly identical again: 0.708 on the PSA 6 and 0.710 on the PSA 8. The margin of error on the scan resolution is also a factor since they are not razor sharp. I welcome anyone to duplicate my measurements for accuracy sake.
So Dave (murcerfan), if had no wrinkles and it only had two tiny touches, and the centering didn't knock it down, then why was it a PSA 6 in the first place? By your description it sounds like an 8.
Only PSA can try to answer that one.
either incompetence or dishonesty.
............ I no longer care which.
but remember that my opinions are "subjective and I make lots of mistakes"
30787589- 1948 Bowman- Hartung- Not Holdered Evidence of Trimming 30787590- 1955 Bowman- M. Mantle- Not Holdered Evidence of Trimming 30787591- 1971 Topps- T. Munson- Not Holdered Evidence of Trimming 30787592- 1975 Topps Mini- G. Brett- PSA 9 30787593- 1975 Topps- P.Rose - PSA 9
Comments
1955 O'Rourke won on July 8 by syzygy3.14
1955 O'Rourke sold on August 15 by slabbed
50045635 - 1999 - TOPPS - RANDY MOSS - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
50045636 -
50045637 -
50045638 -
50045639 - 1955 - TOPPS ALL-AMER. - CHARLEY O'ROURKE - 8
50045640 -
50045641 -
50045642 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - BOB THOMSON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
50045643 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - HENRY AARON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
50045644 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - WARREN SPAHN - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
Can't catch 'em all ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Yea, but if they'd wise up and just catch this one guy.... that would be a great start.
Mike
1954
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Before Shots
After Shots
<< <i>Pardon my ignorance, but is syzygy3.14 also known on Ebay as 'slabbed'? Or did syzygy3.14 sell Slabbed the O'rourke before it went on Ebay as a PSA 8? Either way, Wolfbears post is alarming to say the least. >>
pardon my ignorance as well.. so is this PSA 8 suspicioned as a former PSA 6?
I kinda like the two cards he got graded right after the O'Rouke. SMR is $25,000 a piece
50045639 - 1955 - TOPPS ALL-AMER. - CHARLEY O'ROURKE - 8
50045640 - Text1996 SI FOR KIDS TIGER WOODS - PSA 10
50045641 - Text1996 SI FOR KIDS TIGER WOODS - PSA 10
50045642 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - BOB THOMSON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
50045643 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - HENRY AARON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
50045644 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - WARREN SPAHN - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
Oh, and I thought this was kinda neat too.
Old tiger #1
Old tiger #2
shouldabeen -
Looks like our very own Carlos just supplied these gentlemen with some more shall we say potenial 10 material .
After a few touch ups, of course ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
When the BGS Mark Prior scandal broke out earlier this year, I swore off BGS graded cards. I simply lost complete faith in what they did. To see this one person (that we know of) basically make his living buying/trimming and selling PSA, BGS, SGC and GAI cards has shaken my belief in the system to the very core.
PSA needs to crack down on this. They need to crack down on this YESTERDAY. I don't care how many submissions this guy sends in a year. No amount of money they generate from this one submitter can offset the embarassment of a scandal like this. If they have a submission where a large number of the cards graded are not slabbed due to 'evidence of trimming', they should return all the cards, charge the person full price and let them know they could not encapsulate the cards. Force these people to take their business elsewhere. After a few submissions, they'll give up quickly on using PSA as their vehicle of choice to rip off others.
Some innocent submitters may be affected by this, but not too many. All I know is something HAS to be done.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Earlier this year, some board members posted a thread concerning a SP Mark Prior RC that was originally graded a BGS 9 and then magically turned into a BGS 10 after some doctoring. Good thing for us the low life who trimmed the card was unable to doctor the serial number on the card.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>threadlife expectancy? >>
If PSA does something like take this thread down, I can't imagine a reason why a sane person would continue to support the company. By bringing this to light, the forum members are helping PSA crack down on the scammers. To pull this thread would be like cops shooting eyewitnesses and victims to a crime instead of going after the criminals.
That being said, to answer your question, 12 hours.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>who made the prior a 10?? I am very curious >>
old thread
<< <i>That being said, to answer your question, 12 hours.
aloof
<< <i>sorry for my not seeing this clearly but again what is slabbed doing ? submitting trimmed cards and getting them graded ?
aloof >>
Well guys, I asked this question at the Set Registry luncheon (sorry that my question wasn't louder), and "poof" here is the perfect example of what I was talking about. I don't expect this thread to last much past 9:00 AM PST, (thankfully I've just saved it to my machine, and suggest other do so as well), but this problem is only going to get worse. It's happening with both modern and vintage cards, and it's a problem that needs to be addressed NOW rather than later.
EDIT: Please note that the serial # on the card leads me to belive that it was graded at the National (I've got a couple of cards from that series).
EDIT #2: Whoops, he even admits in the auction description that it was graded at the National. Shouldn't be too hard for PSA to figure out who graded it then.
If you turn on your PM and profile functions you'd be doing yourself a big favor. A lot of the "information" that is passed around on these boards is done one on one. You'll get quicker (more honest) answers to your questions, and you'll learn much, much more about the problem topics that don't seem to last long on the boards.
As for the card doctors, I agee... it's the single biggest problem facing the hobby. It's also a tuff situation, because the grading companies are not set up to police the hobby. Unfortunately, No one is.
It's almost impossible to prove anything based upon ebay transactions, scans, and submission records... It would take a small "task force" to actually (legally) prove the things that seem fairly obvious to us.
All we can do at this point in the game is complain.... and if enough people keep pointing these things out and complaining loud enough, someday it will get easier to stop these guys.
Mike
schr1st - I recall you asking that question at the Registry luncheon at the National.
If I recall Joe's answer correctly, his main points were :
1. When some of the cards on a submission appear altered, all of the cards are scrutanized more closely.
2. If it starts to become a reoccuring problem with certain dealers, they are contacted and questioned.
3. Telling a dealer they can no longer submit would do no good, since they can always submit through others.
I'm afraid these guys are so good at what they do, that there is no easy solution ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
The first two responses are excellent and a good step towards cleaning
up the hobby.
Response #3 doesn't wash.
If submitters knew that after a second warning they
would be banned from submitting to PSA, then who
in their right mind would allow a trimmer to submit through
his name ?
If I knew that my PSA priviledges could be removed forever,
would I ever allow a trimmer to submit through me ?
I can understand a guy who bought sets in the 80's and
has some trimmed cards in his vintage collection.
But what about a guy who continously submits cards
that have 1990's, 1980's, 1970's, and 1960's cards that
are trimmed ? These people should be more closely monitered.
Sorry, but reason #3 doesn't wash one bit.
PSA is THE ONLY source to police this hobby.
Repeat....
PSA is THE ONLY source to police this fraud.
aloof
<< <i>how are the trimmed cards getting passed the graders ? i thought that was there job, meaning to catch these things.
aloof >>
Aloof,
You are correct. It is their job. It is their job to catch the alterations. If they are not catching the alterations, they are not doing their job properly.
Cracking down on the submitters of altered material is not the solution to the problem. The solution is to make sure that the PSA graders are doing their job properly. There's no reason to be angry with Gerry Schwartz or Gary Moser. You should be angry with PSA for not properly doing their job and catching the alterations. This is absolutely unacceptable.
<< <i>
<< <i>how are the trimmed cards getting passed the graders ? i thought that was there job, meaning to catch these things.
aloof >>
Aloof,
You are correct. It is their job. It is their job to catch the alterations. If they are not catching the alterations, they are not doing their job properly.
Cracking down on the submitters of altered material is not the solution to the problem. The solution is to make sure that the PSA graders are doing their job properly. There's no reason to be angry with Gerry Schwartz or Gary Moser. You should be angry with PSA for not properly doing their job and catching the alterations. This is absolutely unacceptable. >>
<< <i>There's no reason to be angry with Gerry Schwartz or Gary Moser. >>
You can't seriously mean this.
My apartment was robbed two years ago. I should not be angry with the thiefs who broke into my house and stole all my valuables, but rather my apartment security and law enforcement for not guarding my apartment?
aloof1003 -- It's really hard to tell what exactly changed based on those scans, especially since the first scan is fuzzy, but I would not assume that the card in question was trimmed. In many cases a card with 4 strong corners and a slight surface wrinkle will get a PSA 6. If the wrinkle was removed, which some have claimed on various message boards can be done without detection, then that may explain what happened in this instance. Some collectors have no scrupples about repairing wrinkles, while most, like me do object since these techniques have never been proven to be permanent repairs to the problem nor do the people who repair these cards ever disclose these modifications.
What types of written guarantees and security are provided by the apartment management? Do they claim to provide the country's tightest security? If so, those thieves must have been among the world's elite, covering their tracks at every step.
Check out the left edge. It appears that we're talking about more than a slight wrinkle.
You got me. My little apartment in the projects does not have security. Only bars over the window.
My point is, however, that is unreasonable to not hold the card doctors accountable.
z2345
The analogy I've drawn compares your apartment security to the PSA graders. Obviously, the better the "security" the less chance a "burglary" will occur.
That being said, all grading companies make mistakes. It is what they do to correct those mistakes that is important.
edited to add image of the reincarnation
Thanks for the image.
It appears as if the left edge was trimmed and the UL corner (visually, the weakest of the four), was significantly improved.
Murcerfan also wrote on his eBay description: "A very nice card for the harsh grade. the clean back is also well centered.....mini ticks show on 2 corners under magnification"
So Dave (murcerfan), if it had no wrinkles and it only had two tiny touches, and the centering didn't knock it down, then why was it a PSA 6 in the first place? By your description it sounds like an 8.
The scan of the PSA 6 on the first page of the thread is fuzzy because it appears that it was enlarged for a side by side comparison.
I just made high resolution print outs of the original scan, the PSA 6 (slightly smaller, but clearly sharper) and the larger scan, the PSA 8. Using a dial caliper, I measured the ratios of the card sizes on my print outs and the smaller one measured 2.100 x 3.020 = 0.694 and the larger one, the PSA 8 measured 2.380 x 3.420 = 0.696. To me, those numbers are too close to draw a conclusion that it was trimmed. I also did measurements of the Left and Right Borders and the ratios ended up being nearly identical again: 0.708 on the PSA 6 and 0.710 on the PSA 8. The margin of error on the scan resolution is also a factor since they are not razor sharp. I welcome anyone to duplicate my measurements for accuracy sake.
(edited for grammer)
<< <i>I welcome anyone to duplicate my measurements for accuracy sake. >>
Why? Your measurements prove nothing that can't already be ascertained by simply looking at both cards.
Only PSA can try to answer that one.
either incompetence or dishonesty.
............ I no longer care which.
but remember that my opinions are "subjective and I make lots of mistakes"
I wonder if Moser got a 9 or a 10 on this one?
50045636 -
50045637 -
50045638 -
50045639 - 1955 - TOPPS ALL-AMER. - CHARLEY O'ROURKE - 8
50045640 -
50045641 -
50045642 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - BOB THOMSON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
50045643 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - HENRY AARON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
50045644 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - WARREN SPAHN - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
Can't catch 'em all ...
If at first you don't succeed......try and try again.
30787590- 1955 Bowman- M. Mantle- Not Holdered Evidence of Trimming
30787591- 1971 Topps- T. Munson- Not Holdered Evidence of Trimming
30787592- 1975 Topps Mini- G. Brett- PSA 9
30787593- 1975 Topps- P.Rose - PSA 9
Our Boy is hitting around .500 off PSA !
30787589
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
<< <i>Our Boy is hitting around .500 off PSA ! >>
Yep, those are good hitting numbers . . . but what's his OBP? That's what the SABR-metric obsessed among us want to know.
I remember the quaint good old days when one's biggest worry was getting beat up by a card dealer . . .
POTD = 09/03/2003