Did anyone see this?? 1955 AA O'Rouke

Not sure what the last 8 sold for on this particular card as I know it is the toughest in the set, but this sure did seem high to me.Link
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Comments

  • wolfbearwolfbear Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭

    1955 O'Rourke won on July 8 by syzygy3.14

    image

    1955 O'Rourke sold on August 15 by slabbed

    image


    50045635 - 1999 - TOPPS - RANDY MOSS - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
    50045636 -
    50045637 -
    50045638 -
    50045639 - 1955 - TOPPS ALL-AMER. - CHARLEY O'ROURKE - 8
    50045640 -
    50045641 -
    50045642 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - BOB THOMSON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
    50045643 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - HENRY AARON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
    50045644 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - WARREN SPAHN - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming

    Can't catch 'em all ... image

    Pix of 'My Kids'

    "How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
  • shouldabeena10shouldabeena10 Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭
    "Can't catch 'em all..."

    Yea, but if they'd wise up and just catch this one guy.... that would be a great start.

    Mike

    "Vintage Football Cards" A private Facebook Group of 4000 members, for vintage football card trading, sales & auctions. https://facebook.com/groups/vintagefootball/
  • 19541954 Posts: 2,768 ✭✭✭
    That makes me sick for you Dave and it makes me sick for the people buying his altered crap.

    1954
    Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
  • Incredible.
  • i bought a psa 6 1955 bowman mantle from slabbed about 5 months ago, whats the problem ? i had a problem free transaction. or did i get lucky ?image
    Working on 1952 bowman in exmt and above. Always looking to buy those and nrmt-mt 50's-60's rookies.Any 33 goudey gehrigs for sale ? Let me know
  • Pardon my ignorance, but is syzygy3.14 also known on Ebay as 'slabbed'? Or did syzygy3.14 sell Slabbed the O'rourke before it went on Ebay as a PSA 8? Either way, Wolfbears post is alarming to say the least.
    image

    GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
  • shouldabeena10shouldabeena10 Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭
    Anyone remember the old gameshow "Match Game"?

    Before Shots

    After Shots



    "Vintage Football Cards" A private Facebook Group of 4000 members, for vintage football card trading, sales & auctions. https://facebook.com/groups/vintagefootball/
  • pandrewspandrews Posts: 8,166 ✭✭


    << <i>Pardon my ignorance, but is syzygy3.14 also known on Ebay as 'slabbed'? Or did syzygy3.14 sell Slabbed the O'rourke before it went on Ebay as a PSA 8? Either way, Wolfbears post is alarming to say the least. >>



    pardon my ignorance as well.. so is this PSA 8 suspicioned as a former PSA 6?
    ·p_A·
  • shouldabeena10shouldabeena10 Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭
    Wolf,

    I kinda like the two cards he got graded right after the O'Rouke. SMR is $25,000 a piece

    50045639 - 1955 - TOPPS ALL-AMER. - CHARLEY O'ROURKE - 8
    50045640 - Text1996 SI FOR KIDS TIGER WOODS - PSA 10
    50045641 - Text1996 SI FOR KIDS TIGER WOODS - PSA 10
    50045642 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - BOB THOMSON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
    50045643 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - HENRY AARON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
    50045644 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - WARREN SPAHN - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming

    Oh, and I thought this was kinda neat too.
    Old tiger #1
    Old tiger #2
    "Vintage Football Cards" A private Facebook Group of 4000 members, for vintage football card trading, sales & auctions. https://facebook.com/groups/vintagefootball/
  • wolfbearwolfbear Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭

    shouldabeen -

    Looks like our very own Carlos just supplied these gentlemen with some more shall we say potenial 10 material .

    After a few touch ups, of course ...

    Pix of 'My Kids'

    "How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
  • Wow. I'm speechless.

    When the BGS Mark Prior scandal broke out earlier this year, I swore off BGS graded cards. I simply lost complete faith in what they did. To see this one person (that we know of) basically make his living buying/trimming and selling PSA, BGS, SGC and GAI cards has shaken my belief in the system to the very core.

    PSA needs to crack down on this. They need to crack down on this YESTERDAY. I don't care how many submissions this guy sends in a year. No amount of money they generate from this one submitter can offset the embarassment of a scandal like this. If they have a submission where a large number of the cards graded are not slabbed due to 'evidence of trimming', they should return all the cards, charge the person full price and let them know they could not encapsulate the cards. Force these people to take their business elsewhere. After a few submissions, they'll give up quickly on using PSA as their vehicle of choice to rip off others.

    Some innocent submitters may be affected by this, but not too many. All I know is something HAS to be done.



    image

    GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
  • pandrewspandrews Posts: 8,166 ✭✭
    ridiculous..

    ·p_A·
  • prior incident?? could you please explain I didnt catch it. I am stunneed these guys buy 8.5's and trim and then become 10's?? CRAZY



    Check Out our auctions grandslamcardco on ebay
  • Pick6,
    Earlier this year, some board members posted a thread concerning a SP Mark Prior RC that was originally graded a BGS 9 and then magically turned into a BGS 10 after some doctoring. Good thing for us the low life who trimmed the card was unable to doctor the serial number on the card.
    image

    GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
  • pandrewspandrews Posts: 8,166 ✭✭
    threadlife expectancy?
    ·p_A·
  • I thought the name of the guy sounded familiar. I guess he got sick and tired of mickey mousing around with PRO and GEM and decided to grab the big bucks and use PSA instead. Talk about being handed the keys to the vault.

    image

    GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
  • who made the prior a 10?? I am very curious
    Check Out our auctions grandslamcardco on ebay


  • << <i>threadlife expectancy? >>



    If PSA does something like take this thread down, I can't imagine a reason why a sane person would continue to support the company. By bringing this to light, the forum members are helping PSA crack down on the scammers. To pull this thread would be like cops shooting eyewitnesses and victims to a crime instead of going after the criminals.

    That being said, to answer your question, 12 hours. image
    image

    GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
  • pandrewspandrews Posts: 8,166 ✭✭


    << <i>who made the prior a 10?? I am very curious >>



    old thread
    ·p_A·
  • pandrewspandrews Posts: 8,166 ✭✭


    << <i>That being said, to answer your question, 12 hours. image >>



    image
    ·p_A·
  • I seems ironic to me that my final "PSA membership" expired today.





  • sorry for my not seeing this clearly but again what is slabbed doing ? submitting trimmed cards and getting them graded ?

    aloof
    Working on 1952 bowman in exmt and above. Always looking to buy those and nrmt-mt 50's-60's rookies.Any 33 goudey gehrigs for sale ? Let me know
  • Yes, that is the belief.



    << <i>sorry for my not seeing this clearly but again what is slabbed doing ? submitting trimmed cards and getting them graded ?

    aloof >>




    Well guys, I asked this question at the Set Registry luncheon (sorry that my question wasn't louder), and "poof" here is the perfect example of what I was talking about. I don't expect this thread to last much past 9:00 AM PST, (thankfully I've just saved it to my machine, and suggest other do so as well), but this problem is only going to get worse. It's happening with both modern and vintage cards, and it's a problem that needs to be addressed NOW rather than later.


    EDIT: Please note that the serial # on the card leads me to belive that it was graded at the National (I've got a couple of cards from that series).

    EDIT #2: Whoops, he even admits in the auction description that it was graded at the National. Shouldn't be too hard for PSA to figure out who graded it then.
    Who is Rober Maris?
  • shouldabeena10shouldabeena10 Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭
    aloof (and others),

    If you turn on your PM and profile functions you'd be doing yourself a big favor. A lot of the "information" that is passed around on these boards is done one on one. You'll get quicker (more honest) answers to your questions, and you'll learn much, much more about the problem topics that don't seem to last long on the boards.

    As for the card doctors, I agee... it's the single biggest problem facing the hobby. It's also a tuff situation, because the grading companies are not set up to police the hobby. Unfortunately, No one is.

    It's almost impossible to prove anything based upon ebay transactions, scans, and submission records... It would take a small "task force" to actually (legally) prove the things that seem fairly obvious to us.

    All we can do at this point in the game is complain.... and if enough people keep pointing these things out and complaining loud enough, someday it will get easier to stop these guys.

    Mike


    "Vintage Football Cards" A private Facebook Group of 4000 members, for vintage football card trading, sales & auctions. https://facebook.com/groups/vintagefootball/
  • wolfbearwolfbear Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭

    schr1st - I recall you asking that question at the Registry luncheon at the National.
    If I recall Joe's answer correctly, his main points were :

    1. When some of the cards on a submission appear altered, all of the cards are scrutanized more closely.
    2. If it starts to become a reoccuring problem with certain dealers, they are contacted and questioned.
    3. Telling a dealer they can no longer submit would do no good, since they can always submit through others.

    I'm afraid these guys are so good at what they do, that there is no easy solution ...

    Pix of 'My Kids'

    "How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
  • Wolfbear..

    The first two responses are excellent and a good step towards cleaning
    up the hobby.

    Response #3 doesn't wash.

    If submitters knew that after a second warning they
    would be banned from submitting to PSA, then who
    in their right mind would allow a trimmer to submit through
    his name ?

    If I knew that my PSA priviledges could be removed forever,
    would I ever allow a trimmer to submit through me ?

    I can understand a guy who bought sets in the 80's and
    has some trimmed cards in his vintage collection.
    But what about a guy who continously submits cards
    that have 1990's, 1980's, 1970's, and 1960's cards that
    are trimmed ? These people should be more closely monitered.

    Sorry, but reason #3 doesn't wash one bit.

    PSA is THE ONLY source to police this hobby.
    Repeat....
    PSA is THE ONLY source to police this fraud.
  • how are the trimmed cards getting passed the graders ? i thought that was there job, meaning to catch these things.
    aloof
    Working on 1952 bowman in exmt and above. Always looking to buy those and nrmt-mt 50's-60's rookies.Any 33 goudey gehrigs for sale ? Let me know


  • << <i>how are the trimmed cards getting passed the graders ? i thought that was there job, meaning to catch these things.
    aloof >>



    Aloof,

    You are correct. It is their job. It is their job to catch the alterations. If they are not catching the alterations, they are not doing their job properly.

    Cracking down on the submitters of altered material is not the solution to the problem. The solution is to make sure that the PSA graders are doing their job properly. There's no reason to be angry with Gerry Schwartz or Gary Moser. You should be angry with PSA for not properly doing their job and catching the alterations. This is absolutely unacceptable.
  • Actually, I'm angry with both the submitters (I honestly wish very bad things would happen to them), and with PSA for not catching it.



    << <i>

    << <i>how are the trimmed cards getting passed the graders ? i thought that was there job, meaning to catch these things.
    aloof >>



    Aloof,

    You are correct. It is their job. It is their job to catch the alterations. If they are not catching the alterations, they are not doing their job properly.

    Cracking down on the submitters of altered material is not the solution to the problem. The solution is to make sure that the PSA graders are doing their job properly. There's no reason to be angry with Gerry Schwartz or Gary Moser. You should be angry with PSA for not properly doing their job and catching the alterations. This is absolutely unacceptable. >>

    Who is Rober Maris?
  • COSTANZA wrote:

    << <i>There's no reason to be angry with Gerry Schwartz or Gary Moser. >>



    You can't seriously mean this.

    My apartment was robbed two years ago. I should not be angry with the thiefs who broke into my house and stole all my valuables, but rather my apartment security and law enforcement for not guarding my apartment?
  • dudedude Posts: 1,625
    zsz70 -- Glad to see you back!

    aloof1003 -- It's really hard to tell what exactly changed based on those scans, especially since the first scan is fuzzy, but I would not assume that the card in question was trimmed. In many cases a card with 4 strong corners and a slight surface wrinkle will get a PSA 6. If the wrinkle was removed, which some have claimed on various message boards can be done without detection, then that may explain what happened in this instance. Some collectors have no scrupples about repairing wrinkles, while most, like me do object since these techniques have never been proven to be permanent repairs to the problem nor do the people who repair these cards ever disclose these modifications.
  • z2345,

    What types of written guarantees and security are provided by the apartment management? Do they claim to provide the country's tightest security? If so, those thieves must have been among the world's elite, covering their tracks at every step.
  • dude,

    Check out the left edge. It appears that we're talking about more than a slight wrinkle.
  • waittiltheytrytobuy

    You got me. My little apartment in the projects does not have security. Only bars over the window.

    My point is, however, that is unreasonable to not hold the card doctors accountable.

    z2345
  • z2345,

    The analogy I've drawn compares your apartment security to the PSA graders. Obviously, the better the "security" the less chance a "burglary" will occur.

    That being said, all grading companies make mistakes. It is what they do to correct those mistakes that is important.
  • There were no surface wrinkles on that card.
  • image
    image

    edited to add image of the reincarnation
  • murcerfan,

    Thanks for the image.

    It appears as if the left edge was trimmed and the UL corner (visually, the weakest of the four), was significantly improved.
  • dudedude Posts: 1,625
    Murcerfan just wrote: "There were no wrinkles on that card"

    Murcerfan also wrote on his eBay description: "A very nice card for the harsh grade. the clean back is also well centered.....mini ticks show on 2 corners under magnification"

    So Dave (murcerfan), if it had no wrinkles and it only had two tiny touches, and the centering didn't knock it down, then why was it a PSA 6 in the first place? By your description it sounds like an 8.

    The scan of the PSA 6 on the first page of the thread is fuzzy because it appears that it was enlarged for a side by side comparison.

    I just made high resolution print outs of the original scan, the PSA 6 (slightly smaller, but clearly sharper) and the larger scan, the PSA 8. Using a dial caliper, I measured the ratios of the card sizes on my print outs and the smaller one measured 2.100 x 3.020 = 0.694 and the larger one, the PSA 8 measured 2.380 x 3.420 = 0.696. To me, those numbers are too close to draw a conclusion that it was trimmed. I also did measurements of the Left and Right Borders and the ratios ended up being nearly identical again: 0.708 on the PSA 6 and 0.710 on the PSA 8. The margin of error on the scan resolution is also a factor since they are not razor sharp. I welcome anyone to duplicate my measurements for accuracy sake.

    (edited for grammer)


  • << <i>I welcome anyone to duplicate my measurements for accuracy sake. >>


    Why? Your measurements prove nothing that can't already be ascertained by simply looking at both cards.
  • So Dave (murcerfan), if had no wrinkles and it only had two tiny touches, and the centering didn't knock it down, then why was it a PSA 6 in the first place? By your description it sounds like an 8.


    Only PSA can try to answer that one.

    either incompetence or dishonesty.

    ............ I no longer care which.

    but remember that my opinions are "subjective and I make lots of mistakes"


    I wonder if Moser got a 9 or a 10 on this one?

    image
  • unishipuniship Posts: 559 ✭✭
    This ain't good. It looks to me like the 8 is shorter left to right than the 6. Just look at the new extra room in the 8 holder.
  • 50045635 - 1999 - TOPPS - RANDY MOSS - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
    50045636 -
    50045637 -
    50045638 -
    50045639 - 1955 - TOPPS ALL-AMER. - CHARLEY O'ROURKE - 8
    50045640 -
    50045641 -
    50045642 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - BOB THOMSON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
    50045643 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - HENRY AARON - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
    50045644 - 1954 - JOHNSTON COOKIES - WARREN SPAHN - Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming

    Can't catch 'em all ...


    If at first you don't succeed......try and try again.


    image
  • pandrewspandrews Posts: 8,166 ✭✭
    imageimageimage
    ·p_A·
  • I feel ill looking at these cards.
    Who is Rober Maris?
  • 30787589- 1948 Bowman- Hartung- Not Holdered Evidence of Trimming
    30787590- 1955 Bowman- M. Mantle- Not Holdered Evidence of Trimming
    30787591- 1971 Topps- T. Munson- Not Holdered Evidence of Trimming
    30787592- 1975 Topps Mini- G. Brett- PSA 9
    30787593- 1975 Topps- P.Rose - PSA 9



    Our Boy is hitting around .500 off PSA !

    30787589
  • Amazing...
    Where have you gone Dave Vargha
    CU turns its lonely eyes to you
    What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
    Vargha bucks have left and gone away?

    hey hey hey
    hey hey hey


  • << <i>Our Boy is hitting around .500 off PSA ! >>



    Yep, those are good hitting numbers . . . but what's his OBP? That's what the SABR-metric obsessed among us want to know.

    I remember the quaint good old days when one's biggest worry was getting beat up by a card dealer . . .
    image
    POTD = 09/03/2003
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