Am I the only one that thinks this way RE. $10 Indians??

saintguru

OK...I collect Saints, and because they are so costly I have limited myself so far to this set only. I always have dealers and other collectors urging me to start a set of $10 Indians, a perfect compliment. Here's my dilemna...

I find it very offensive that my they took an Anglo woman and put her in a chieftain headdress!! It's a "sublime?" insult to the Native Americans for that reason, plus in NA culture a woman would never wear a chief's feathers. (I am not being sexist, it just IS that way) Now I am no bleeding-heart liberal. This is just another example of our contradictory treatment of the NA's. We name 3/4 of our states and rivers after them, all the while the government was double-crossing and killing them. And then we memorialized them on our coins??!! It just rubs me wrong. At least if you're going to portray an "Indian" do it like the $2.50 or $5...or the Buffalo nickle, which all showed strong NA's as they really looked. I don't know why this bothers me so much because the $10's are really beautiful coins, but it just doesn't incite me to go out and collect these strange icons. I'm not always politically correct, mind you...LOL...but this cuts deep into the history of our country, and if there was any TRUE AMERICAN it was the real "Indian". The genocide of a highly spiritual tribal society. Not exactly true to the American ideals?

This may be trivial to some, but it has kept me from considering starting the set. I just want to add that I am a flag waving patriot and stand behind everything great that this country stands for. I know this is an academic issue, but I'd like to know what others think?

tradedollarnut

If you really feel that way, then I'm curious as to why you selected the icon that you did.

darktone

relax a bit and collect what you like. mike

puff

<< <i>If you really feel that way, then I'm curious as to why you selected the icon that you did. >>



Good point TDN.

saintguru

How I KNEW that was coming!! TDN, I haven't been here long but I have seen that you don't miss a thing!! First, it is a gorgeous coin pattern, regardless of the subject, with a POP 1. It was the alter-design to what I DO collect. I could NOT find a good scan of a Saint and had to pick something, ergo the first 20th century double eagle.

That's the best explanation I can give. I apologize for MY minor contradiction, but allow me this one digression? Doe this invalidate my REAL point???

RYK

I love the design, though I agree that Native Americans were treated poorly. Then Major Winfield Scott (who later became a Civil War hero as a General) was in charge of marching the Cherokee out of Georgia in the what later became known as the Trail of Tears in order to make way for the gold rush, which led to the establishment of the Dahlonega Mint. I collected Dahlonega half eagles. Not PC, I guess.

Here's a question to you. The $10 Indians and the $20 Saints were designed by the sculptor, Augustus Saint-Gaudens. So why do we call the $20's Saints and the $10's $10 Indians?

puff

>>>TDN, I haven't been here long but I have seen that you don't miss a thing!!<<<

You'll have to get up pretty early in the morning to get one past TDN.

saintguru

That's a damn good question. Like why did we name North and South Dakota while we killed the Dakotas?? Another Zen riddle RYK. You guys are all sharp!

Bustman

Collect what you like.
It happens to be one of my top three favorite designs for a coin. Just a stunning design. And in this WAY too pc world of ours, the last thing I worry about with my collection is being pc.

wayneme

You mean Lakota Indains

saintguru

Uhhhh...yeah...of course...

Wasn't there like a small band of DA-kotas that got kicked out of the tribe?

wayneme

not that i've heard of but you never know

saintguru

For MY sake I believe they were...and they PARTIED!!

lava

Interesting topic. Aside from the politics, I tend to share your feeling that it was ludicrous to dress a white woman up as an indian, and for that reason, I too find the design a distraction.

saintguru

Another similar topic...I never realized until a few years ago that the Barber design was a woman!! Either she is an East German shotputter or "It's PAT !!"

nankraut

At the risk of exposing my limited knowledge of the $10 Indian Series--how do you know it is an Anglo woman on the coin? If you really want to get nit-picky, shouldn't it be called a $10 "native American' coin?

DorkGirl

I think that it is a beautiful design. I also think that it is far too hard in this day and age to be PC in everything, especially with a design on a coin that was minted that long ago. There are so many other things to worry about, I say don't sweat the small stuff!!

saintguru

Nan...read about it...it definately was an anglo female model AND depiction.

originalisbest

I don't really think enough about it to the point where I ponder whether some native american or native american groups would consider it offensive or not - and frankly, you can find someone to be offended over just about anything under the sun. I like the coin because the portraiture is beautiful - and perhaps if Saint Gaudens had kept a laurel wreath on Liberty's head (as it was on the bust of Nike that he did, which was the direct model for this coin) the issue would never come up anyway.

This thread brings to mind another theory I've had in my more idle moments - supposin' we get to be so PC that the collecting of Indian Head cents is outlawed one day? Gather up your keys and commons, people, and turn 'em in to the scrap heap - keep any under wraps at your own risk of being found afoul of the new sensitivity laws! Jail time and fines will be meted out based on quantities found....

(after all, the "Indian" on the Indian Head cent is "offensive" in just the way the Indian $10 is.)

saintguru

Ya know I think you are right. That isn't a native INDIAN either. My point I guess is the nerve of the policy makers at the turn of the century regarding the murder and coining of these people. Man, I must be bored!!!

puff

>>(after all, the "Indian" on the Indian Head cent is "offensive" in just the way the Indian $10 is.)<<

OIB..... They might confiscate all the Indian Head/Buffalo nickels too!

Numismanic

<< <i> They might confiscate all the Indian Head/Buffalo nickels too! >>



Over my dead body!

Russ

I'm more offended by the androgeny of the image than that fact that it doesn't look like an Indian.

Russ, NCNE

originalisbest

No, it's a valid point for good discussion - particularly I guess if you happen to be of Native American heritage. I had a number of interesting dealings with various NA people at U of I, all positive - one was an art professor who used quite a bit of tribal iconography in his abstract works. Big and bold and lots of color.

Whether or not to keep Chief Illiniwek as a mascot (offensive? Tradition? honorary?) was a debate with predictably drawn lines that hasn't abated any since I was there 10 years ago -

But back to coinage at the turn of the century - there were many varied injustices being done to Indian people at the time that are probably long forgotten now (admittedly not nearly as "permanent" as a coin) - I'm thinking of an 1899 comic section I have with a cartoon at the bottom of one page with a news snippet of a recently deceased, somewhat famous Indian chief - a "happy hunting ground" image was drawn, complete with a scene of an Indian burial - along with the caption:

"A good Injun is a dead Injun."

And of course that same year, currency collectors will note that the Chief $5 silver certificate came out as well, with what seems a quite flattering NA portrait -

Note though, that here too, in the case of the paper $5, the headdress was "tacked on" by the engraver. That addition may account for the later headdress on the St. Gaudens $10 - just a "novel" way to commemorate Indian folklore and the like, at that time.

I doubt that anyone asked about it at the time would have considered it sensitive - but they probably may not, at large, have cared either.

I am again reminded of comics of the era, in particular, one classic strip that the Chicago Trib used to republish, year upon year, every Halloween of so, about "Injun summer" - until not long ago, in the name of "sensitivity", the practice was dropped.


So even though I am slightly in jest about recaiing all Indian cents, perhaps it's not so far-fetched? Yeah, in the case of coins it is - with senators such as Ben-Nighthorse Campell often trying to encourage Native American themes on our current coinage, etc. But there's no controversy generally stirred by such things....

however...

What if someone attempted to introduce a graphic depiction of what happened to Custer and co. at Little Big Horn? A very solemn a beautiful place to visit, btw, if you find yourself out west... I likes it out there.

One more thing afore I quit rambling... I just remembered a good, friendly guy who often is at the coin shop I go to... he happens to be a Native American. And, I can honestly say, the notion of appropriateness of Indians on coinage has never come up.

originalisbest

Naah, puff, I think the Buffalo nickels are OK - what you have there is a truly magnificent, composite portrait by one J.E. Fraser, who specialized in faithful and respectful renditions of many such peoples - I think we can let that one slide!

As a sidenote, there are a number of treasures in public art around downtown Chicago, not the least of which is some large sculptured relief pieces by that same Mr. Fraser - reminds me of a glorious blown-up coin!

saintguru

Great post, originalsbest!! I agree that the Buffalo indian is a REAL NA...it's a bold, strong American coin. Another Chi-guy? Yeah. How bout dem Bears? PU

originalisbest

Hey, I'm just glad the Chicago Bears ain't the Chicago Indians...

They got enuf problems!

eddieal

As a member of the Cherokee Tribe of Northeast Alabama I would like to add my two cents worth, no pun intended. Most, in our state recognized tribe, find no offence with the word Indian or red skin. Maybe we are not PC but this old world has too many problems to deal with to even consider something so trivial. The $10 Indian is just a coin with a fake looking Indian on the obverse but what was said about mistreatment of the Native Americans, ie the "Trail of Tears" is dear to our hearts. Many do not know of the deaths along the "Trail of Tears" that was instigated by Andy Jackson and the support given us by Davy Crockett. We may suffer in silence but we never forget. Now go start that "Indian" collection.

originalisbest

Hey eddieal, thanks for the input! Certainly you can speak to the issues at hand with more understanding than I could. This is an interesting thread for me.

saintguru

Very appropo, Eddie. Fact is, that idelogy aside, I've tapped out on my Saints!!! This was more of an academic issue than anything. And Peace to you, bro.

coinlieutenant

Hey!!

No ripping on Barbers!!!



As far as the design, I love it. I dont collect Indian Eagles but if I had money to spare I would. I personally think it is the third best design on American coinage, preceeded by the bust design from 1807-1839 and the draped bust right design on early gold.

And no, I dont worry about the PC'ness of it.

Just to get into a history debate with one of my favorite people on the board.... RYK...Winfield Scott wasnt exactly a civil war hero... He was the head military officer for the Union when the war started in 1861. He was also a Virginian that remained loyal to the North and was against secession. He was one of very few from the beginning of the war that recognized that a nihilistic war of brother vs. brother wasnt the answer. He figured that it would take much more money to rebuild the south from an economic and fraternal standpoint if there was an all out death and destruction invasion. His answer was the Anaconda plan that involved choking and starving the south's will to fight by not allowing supplies in and not allowing their main cash crop, cotton, out. He underestimated the resolve of the South and the war ended up having to be fought in a much nastier manner. (See Sherman's march through Georgia and South Carolina)... He was generally disliked in the north for his plan, which was ridiculed by the overzealous North in the beginning of the war. His plan did not fit well with their cry's of "On to Richmond!!!" Also, his plan came dangerously close to bringing England into the war on the side of the Confederacy since their supply of cotton came overwhelmingly from the South. Luckily, they had stockpiled large amounts of cotton two years earlier that kept England's infant textile mills in business...



And you thought I only knew about oceanography!!!

John

tradedollarnut

There's nothing yummier than those colorful $10 Indians. The best kind of gold!

saintguru

Coin Lt.

I actually think Barbers are one of the best designed series ever. As I stated my best coin-bud has the finest B Half collection in history...we always laugh about this. But again, I really LIKE them. I'm going to bed. My other link wore me out.

RYK

Hero was not the right word choice. I actually considered "celebrity" or "personality", since he was more about personality and flamboyance than he was a hero. I thought I could sneal "hero" through. BTW, I am about to reread Killer Angels. Great Civil War book.

coinlieutenant

I had to bust your !@#$%...
I havent read that book but I should... I love civil war history...

Didnt you just buy a nice Inidian Eagle? Any pics!??

John

puff

Hey Saint, I see you have your PM on now but do you know how to tell when you have a message? If not look up in the left hand corner for the little red blinking "lock" with "no new message(s)" icon and click on it if it's flashing.

ddink

Deal with it



<< <i>Anglo >>



The model was British? I may be white, or caucasian, or whatever, but I'm certainly not an "anglo." The treatment of Indians reminds me of race relations between black and white in the South. Some white person does something terrible to a black, so a different black does something back to a different white than the first one, at which point yet another white hangs still another black. In the mean time the first white (who deserves what the second white got) is still well and fine. Same way with Indians. Settler-A attacks Indian-A, so Indian-A attacks some innocent and unrelated white person, Settler-B. In retaliation, whites kill a totally different bunch or Indians (Indians-B) that had absolutely nothing to do with anything.

It's sad and terrible, but never let anyone tell you that there weren't atrocities on BOTH sides. Read Texas by Michener for a discussion of the Comanche. They enjoyed ripping out a person's entrails, cutting off genetalia, slicing off noses and fingers, and in general torturing men, women, and children. And of course, white men were known to skin Indians alive. Like I said, terrible atrocities by BOTH parties.


Coin LT: It's amazing how money and patriotism don't mix. Of course, the late 1850's WERE banner years for cotton, but at the same time Richmond was dictating a "no cotton for you unless you help us" stance, wealthy Southern merchants were taking advantage of the "relative" scarcity to sell at slightly higher prices. Had the Confederacy held to a strict policy of not selling cotton, Europe would have had little choice but to enter the war. On the other hand, had the Confederacy gone the other way and sold all their cotton while they could, they would have had more money for arms.

At any rate, Winfield Scott was hardly a hero. He was a bumbling old man and a traitor to boot. I do, however, feel sorry for the way McClellan treated him (he snubbed Scott and generally made his life miserable in order to induce him to early retirement). Hurrah for McClellan, who did nearly as much for the Southern cause as R. E. Lee himself

Since India was the only major source of saltpeter in the world, and India was owned by Britain, imagine what would have happened if the British had entered the war on the side of the Confederacy, as almost happened twice.

saintguru

Puff...I did...but it's not blinking.....

puff

<< <i>Puff...I did...but it's not blinking..... >>



Click on the icon agin while it's not blinking and then click on "history".

RYK

Didnt you just buy a nice Indian Eagle? Any pics!??

I did recently buy the nicest, choicest MS-62 Indian Eagle from Coinlieutenant:

coinlieutenant

A shameless plug!!

puff

<< <i>Didnt you just buy a nice Indian Eagle? Any pics!??

I did recently buy the nicest, choicest MS-62 Indian Eagle from Coinlieutenant:

>>



Nice Indian Robert!

BTW......... Saint has his PM funtioning now and I think he might have missed this.

saintguru

Nice...now isn't this fun?? And this SG idiot finally figured out the IM thing. Now I can get yelled at privately.

coinlieutenant

Remember Robert...Sushi if it upgrades!!

J

puff

<< <i>Nice...now isn't this fun?? And this SG idiot finally figured out the IM thing. Now I can get yelled at privately. >>



For some reason Saint you are having problems with spelling PM, (not IM), are you dislexic(sp)!

nwcs

The design does not bother me. As a student of history I'm well aware of the many issues involved that could speak to both sides and neither side. In the grand scheme, I find this issue very very minor. I'm far more concerned with the things I see going on in this country today in increasing measure.