Possibly unique Isle of Man coin

MadMuffin

During the summer I purchased this:



- an Isle of Man 1980 five pound coin - struck in silver.

It's supposed to be made of gold and so far this is the only specimen struck in silver that is known to me. It is not listed in any catalogs that I have had the chance to look at - except for the 2005 Krause where it can be found as KM29a. The listing is made because of this very coin that I have purchased and according to the people at Krause Publications they have never seen anything similar.

The coin weighs 23.84 gram and has a diameter of 36.1 mm. The fineness of the silver is unknown. It has a reeded edge and it's a proof strike.

I am pretty excited about this coin. It is strange that apparently it has not surfaced until now though it was struck 25 years ago (I assume). So now I am doing a little detective work to see if it's really true that it is the only one of it's kind in existence.



Marcel

MadMuffin

And there is a second chapter to the story. The first obvious place to contact for information was the Pobjoy Mint where the coin was struck. I suppose I thought that they would find this interesting, but no... anyway, this is the email that I sent to the mint:

Hi,I recently purchased a 1980 IOM 5 pound coin - gold type, but struck in silver. A picture is attached to this email. I am currently doing some research on the coin to try and find out why it was made and whether it really is unique.

The coin has the following specifications:
Silver, fineness unknown
23.84 gram, 36.1 mm
Reeded edge
Proof strike

In the 2005 version of Standard Catalog of World Coins this particular coin has been accepted as KM29A. I cannot find it in any other catalog. Krause Publications claim that they have never seen or heard of a similar coin.

So now I am contacting you at the Pobjoy Mint to hear what you can tell about this coin. Any kind of information is welcome, but I have a particular interest in the following:

- Why was this coin made (trial strike / error / unauthorized striking?)
- How many pieces exist?
- Is it common practise to make off-metal strikes to test dies and then re-melt them?

Looking forward to your answer. If required, a larger image of the coin (1mb) is available.

Best regards,
Marcel Andreassen,
Denmark

Soon after, I recieved a reply:

Mr Andreassen

I have consulted our records and I am unable to locate any records of a Silver 1980 Viking on Horse Back coin. Therefore, we are unable to answer your questions.

I apologise for being unable to provide you with more information

Regards

Emma Smith

Ok, so the coin is not in their records. That did not surprise me. I was surprised, however, that she had no comment to my question about off-metal strikes. Obviously she did not need to consult the records to answer that. So I tried again to see if she had any other information:

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly.

Does the fact that the coin is not in your records indicate that it may be an unauthorized striking?

Best regards,
Marcel Andreassen

And this is the reply I got:

To confirm that we do not have any record of this coin on our system, and I
am unable to make any further comment.

Regards

Emma Smith

So... either this story about a coin that shouldn't exist is somehow embarrasing to the Pobjoy Mint - or perhaps they just don't give a d*mn. That is my interpretation.



Marcel

cosmicdebris

Don't ask don't tell. I guess.

The best thing to do would be to find a gold one and compare the two. If they appear to be made from the same die I would say you got something there.

tonyhar

Very Interesting.
All of the following years have silver versions but like you I can not find reference to a 1980 in any of my reference books.
Mind you strange things happened in the 70s and early 80s.

earlwbollinger

Are you sure it was made at the Pobjoy Mint?
It might have been struck elsewhere?

tonyhar

All coins, both circulating and others ( choose the name! ) have all been Pobjoy since 1972.

trozau

It looks like it has some sort of a privy mark under the horse's belly. It could be a special commemorative striking. I have a 1 ounce gold Isle of Man Angel from 1987 by the Pobjoy Mint with a Papal privy mark for when the Pope visited the US. Not sure if it is in Krause but I would venture to guess that it is not.

earlwbollinger

Well then, it looks like someone needs to take the coin and fly over to where the Pobjoy mint is and show them
the coin first hand, and see if anyone knows anything about it.
It definitely looks too nice to be a fake.

MadMuffin

As to the special mark below the horse, it is the head of the Queen Mother. This mark is also on all common gold 1980 five pound coins. As suggested I might need to find a gold piece to compare with. That will not be too easy... the mintage of the gold five pound is only 250 pieces.

Then there is the question whether the coin was actually struck at the Pobjoy Mint. I suppose this could be a good forgery, struck with professional equipment, but I do not find that very likely. The coin dealer that I bought the coin from consider it genuine and so does Krause. Personally I see no indication of something being "wrong" with the coin.

What I believe so far is that perhaps an employe at the mint slipped a silver planchet between the presses to make himself a special "souvenir". As a result the coin would be considered genuine, but an unauthorized strike.

It may also be some kind of pattern or "die tester". Does anyone know if it is common practise to make such tests in different metals?

Thanks for your input so far

Marcel

MadMuffin

earlw - I always wanted to see the Isle of Man anyway. Perhaps next summer?

Marcel

tbirde56

Cool piece Marcel! At least Krause recognizes it! That may be as far as it gets. I suspect if you show up at Pobjoy they'll merely dismiss you in person as they did through the mail. And if you have the piece with you to show them they may confiscate it and let a guard escort you out?

Perhaps you should try reverse psychology and mail them a copy of Krause's listing, a picture of the coin, both sides, and a letter commenting on the high standard of quality work that was put into the piece and asking them who the talented engraver or mintmaster was at the time.

spinaker2000

Maybe board member "Danglen" could help you with this. He works closely with Pobjoy.

danglen

<< <i> Maybe board member "Danglen" could help you with this. He works closely with Pobjoy. >>



I do work very closely with the Pobjoy Mint office here in the US and will be sharing a booth with them at the FUN Show next year as I did this year. Having said that, it has been my experience that the Mint is not very interested in the numismatic aspect of what they do, only in the production aspect of the business. So my guess is that whatever information you might gather on the subject, it probably won't come from Pobjoy. .

GDJMSP

<< <i>It may also be some kind of pattern or "die tester". Does anyone know if it is common practise to make such tests in different metals?

Marcel >>




I can't say that Pobjoy does or did trial strikes in different metals - but it was certainly common for national mints to do so. Off metal strikes are well known and have been for centuries. A look at just about any country's pattern or essai coins will show this. Not that the coins themselves are common, just that it was a common practice. I have one or two myself that are not listed in any book except auction catalogs from over the years. But yet they are accepted as the genuine article in the numismatic community.

I'd say congrats on a great find

earlwbollinger

earlw - I always wanted to see the Isle of Man anyway. Perhaps next summer?
Marcel

So do I.

Askari

Congratulations on a great find!!! I hope if there's another that I find it!!

I suspect it was an off-metal trial strike. Private mints do so, as well as state mints. It probably wasn't supposed to leave the mint. Unfortunately, Dan is right and Pobjoy isn't at all interested in the numismatics side. For them, it's just product to sell and move -- silver rounds to be sold at a generous markup. It's sad, but true. You might do well by asking them who the designer was (and contact information) so that you could ask them further questions, for that person (or persons) would probably be the best source for information you seek.

MadMuffin

Thank you for the advice and thoughts on the subject. I still find it strange, though, that people can make a living out of producing coins without having any numismatic interest - I mean, it takes love to make nice coins, doesn't it?

I will try and find the designer of the coin and keep you updated if I get any further information. Another thing that I am going to try is to contact major British coin auctions and coin dealers to find out if they have seen anything similar. Help with any relevant company names or names of coin dealers would be appeciated

Marcel

earlwbollinger

I still find it strange, though, that people can make a living out of producing coins without having any numismatic interest

Well I think you would have the same lack of interest after stricking coins for years day in and day out.
You likely would not even want to have any change on you at all, before or after work.
Just think stricking thousands if not millions of coins day in, day out, weeks on end, months, and years.
Pretty soon you get pretty sick of it all.
I am impressed that they all can keep the quality up on the whole process.
My hat's off to the coin making people.

1jester

Fantastic find, Marcel! It could very well be an "unauthorized strike", or not intended to have left the mint. I have a similar coin from Poland, and I suspect as you that it was produced by an employee simply sticking a blank into the machinery and getting a unique coin in return.