What's the big deal with MS70 modern proofs?

topstuf

I....thought....I already posted this question, but I can't find it with a search.

Old age I guess.

Anyhow, last night I was looking through an old pop report and noticed how few Kennedy proof 70's there were. How come? Do mint employees JUGGLE with the coins?

If MS70 means exactly as it left the die, then it sure seems that proof sets in plastic would be a rich source of them.
And if there are marks on them (I really don't pay much attention to proof sets) it seems it would only take a mint employee about 10 minutes to be SURE to handle them ....soooooo.......carefully that he could make dozens or hundreds in an hour or so.

Why the rarity?

(this time I am gonna look at the post to highlite it so I can find the answer. I was SURE I posted it)

Oh well.

airplanenut

The rarity? Because that way, they're valuable. NGC has a couple times as many 70s and PCGS, and they're worth far less. ICG has so many 70s, they're worth as much as a PCGS 69.

In retrospect, most moderns probably are 70s... but few will get that on the plastic. Then again, you can have the same coin for 5% of the 70's price... I'll take the 69--or, hell, 68s are pretty damn perfect, too!

Jeremy

Russ

<< <i>it sure seems that proof sets in plastic would be a rich source of them. >>



They are. Buy a bunch and get rich.

Russ, NCNE

nolimitz

Just to be a smart azz but any MS anything should never be in a proof set!

If MS70 means exactly as it left the die, then it sure seems that proof sets in plastic would be a rich source of them.

Gonfunko

It's the pop-top "my coin is better than your coin" mentality. Most modern proofs probably are 70's. (Go ahead, flame me). Nonetheless, to give the impression that they are conservative, PCGS grades most modern proofs as 69 and only an occasional one or two as 70 when the graders are having a good day.

MadMarty

If your asking about MS (business strike) coins, as they leave the die they might be a MS70 until they slide down the ramp and go clink in the cart and get put into a bag with a bunch of friends! Mint sets are just from another cart, you don't really think that mint employees grab a coin right off the press and put it in the mint cello do you?

Proof sets are different all together, they SHOULD all be perfect!

DHeath

Topstuf,

Here's a serious reply. I have been looking at modern proofs long enough that I can pretty easily see the seperation in grade between 67,68, and 69. I cannot, or do not care to see the difference between 69 and 70. I believe 70's exist, and am glad to see the services holder them and include the 70 in the grading scale, but I am not anal enough to care about a grade seperation that requires a loupe.

The frequency of 69's is pretty high in most of the sets minted since 68, and most are Dcam since 81. Personally, I see nothing wrong with collecting these coins in any grade that suits you, including 67's and 68's. For some collectors, it's enough to have a nice example, and for others, it's important to have as high a quality set as they can assemble. Both approaches make sense to me, and it makes some sense to assemble the nicest set you can while the raw coins are still plentiful and the coins are inexpensive.

topstuf

I....meant....PR70.

Where's the Geritol?

Baley

Here's the deal with perfect modern proofs:

most people generally want the nicest "stuff" (in this case, coins) they can afford, but above all, the most "fanatical" collectors want the nicest coins that there are or were made or are extant of that type.

those that can afford gem bust material buy that. if that's too expensive they buy gem seated material.

if that's too much, there are the Barbers and Morgans and Indians, then, later, the world war era coins.

if these perfectionist collectors can't afford gem pre-1964 coins, they go for the gem clad and bullion coins.

someday coins will be plastic or composite resin, and people seeking "the best" will bid up the shiniest ones, because the clads and bullions are now the new "neoclassics" and will be too hard to find and pricey!

(edited for spelling, damned these bourbony fingers!)

topstuf

WTB......PR or MS70 bus tokens.

cladking

I like bus tokens. I'll even pay small premiums for upgrades.

The error is that the definition is wrong. The 70 grade does not mean "as it came
from the dies". It means a perfectly made coin which has been perfectly preserved.
Many MS clad coins were so poorly made that they looked like VF's as they left the
dies. The '66 quarters were among the worst. These were often struck by dies which
had far outlived their usefullness and were poorly aligned and barely hit the planchet.
They should be graded MS-35 as they leave the dies.

It's really the same way with the proofs. While most of these are superb strikes, there
are degrees of superbness. The dies themselves vary a little in preparation and wear
patterns. Coins are often hairlined a little. While there really is a narrow range of qual-
ity for most modern proofs, it can be surprisingly wide on others. There are other prob-
lems that the coins encounter. About 3- 4% of most modern proofs stand out as clearly
superior to others and most of these will go PR-69. On the older moderns most will go
PR-68. In either case though PR-70's are not common generally.