Organization for collectors

TCC

I wanted to get some feedback from everyone on an idea that came out of alot of general discussion on various message boards lately. Basically, there are many collectors who seem very unhappy with the direction of the hobby and are no longer enjoying collecting for what it is - a hobby. As I mentioned in another thread, many collectors talk alot about "leaving the hobby" or no longer "enjoying the hobby". Many state that the direction of the hobby is one of their biggest reasons and say they wish that collectors had a voice in determining that direction.

So, the idea for a national organization of collectors was proposed on the Beckett message boards which led to a very active thread and lots of varying opinions and directions. I personally found the whole thing very interesting as I have been surprised by the lack of such an organization for quite some time. In the end, the thread "weeded out" those that simply were looking for another way to complain and fight and those that might be serious about working on such an organization.

So, what would this type of organization do? It would simply provide support and an organized voice for the large community of collectors.

This type of support includes such areas as Promotion (growing the hobby), Advocacy (extensive market research and consumer reports), Protection (bad trader and fraud alerts, certified seller/company identification), Education (tips, news, articles) and Resources (references, online tools). In my opinion, all of these items would significantly help collectors properly enjoy the hobby.

Growing out of these areas and the information obtained from the use of them would be a properly-prepared Hobby Advisory Board who would be able to work directly with companies within the industry to provide guidance and feedback from a collector's perspective. This group could help address the original concern which is the lack of direct say collectors have in the direction of the hobby.

Obviously, this is a very high-level overview of the organization and there are alot of details that would need worked out. So, at this point, I'm simply wanting to gather more feedback from other collectors on whether this is something of interest. This is something that I would enjoy working on, but would like to know that my time is going into something that other collectors need or want.

-Bob

Dallas88

It's a nice idea, but the hobby is so diverse, I don't think one "organization" would encompass all the interests of all the collectors out there!

Plus, if it were just for sports, then all the coin and comic book guys could scream discrimination, then we all have to sell our collections to pay for the lawyer fees to determine who's idea it was to start an organization just for collectors

However, given that, I nominate David Vargha for president! He seems to get along well with everyone (perfect for politics)

Dal

TCC

<< <i>It's a nice idea, but the hobby is so diverse, I don't think one "organization" would encompass all the interests of all the collectors out there!

Plus, if it were just for sports, then all the coin and comic book guys could scream discrimination, then we all have to sell our collections to pay for the lawyer fees to determine who's idea it was to start an organization just for collectors >>



Actually, coin collectors already have their own organization with the American Numismatic Association (ANA). It was founded in 1891 and has over 28,000 members. So, we might only have to worry about the rioting comic book collectors.

The point about the diverse nature of collectors is something to consider (although there are many types of numismatic collectors as well).

-Bob

Stone193

<< <i>Organization for collectors >>


Back in the late 80's - early 90's there were two organizations that I recollect: NASDAM and SCA (sports collectibles association) and I want to say an SCAI (international) - there was a lot of in-fighting for leadership with nasdam around the US and debates on whether it had any teeth to really do anything - sort of like a 'mutual admiration society' - I wish I could remember more but I didn't and still don't care much for organizations since IMO they eventually become self-serving and the mission becomes preservation of jobs and positions rather than the original mission statement.

Stone

TCC

<< <i>Back in the late 80's - early 90's there were two organizations that I recollect: NASDAM and SCA (sports collectibles association) and I want to say an SCAI (international) - there was a lot of in-fighting for leadership with nasdam around the US and debates on whether it had any teeth to really do anything - sort of like a 'mutual admiration society' - I wish I could remember more but I didn't and still don't care much for organizations since IMO they eventually become self-serving and the mission becomes preservation of jobs and positions rather than the original mission statement. >>



Thanks for the info.

You're correct about previous attempts and the general timeframe. You had both the National Association of Sportscard Dealers and Manufacturers (NASDAM) and Sports Collectibles Association International (SCAI). However, both of these organizations were geared toward supporting dealers and the industry. I'm not sure that anyone ever approached it from the collector's side of things.

In reality, I'm not sold on the concept of an association (non-profit organization) since it would be open to the type of issues you raise. The alternative approach is for it to be handled through a club. There are many examples of this approach working already, especially in the case of automobile enthusiasts. The interesting issue here is whether collectors would really care about association vs. club or would be satisfied with any solution that helps.

Besides being geared toward collectors, one of the other big differences I see with this effort compared to previous ones would be the focus on providing Internet-based tools to support collectors. Even today, many of the leading hobby companies only minimally take advantage of the web. I have close ties to many developers, both software and web-based. In addition, my partner for TCC is a computer programmer who designs web-based applications. Bottom line is that there a ton of web-based tools I'd like to see as a collector because I would use them. So, my personal area of interest would be to see as many of these tools become available as possible.

Just some more of my thoughts behind all of this.

-Bob

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>NASDAM and SCA - there was a lot of in-fighting for leadership and debates >>

no way stone!

That sort of thing could Never happen to
a group of like-minded collectors...
you must be mistaken!

Stone193

<< <i>That sort of thing could Never happen to
a group of like-minded collectors...
you must be mistaken! >>

Doppelganger

This idea has been flogged on other boards...it is a noble, but ultimately, impractical idea.

No card companies respect the purchaser...its all about the benjamins now.

Just look at the modern market outside of Bowman Chrome.......can we say UD Exquisite? They make it, someone buys it.

Stop buying, they will stop producing; it is the card companies driving the bus, the public is along for the ride if you pay the fare.

TCC

<< <i>This idea has been flogged on other boards...it is a noble, but ultimately, impractical idea.

No card companies respect the purchaser...its all about the benjamins now.

Just look at the modern market outside of Bowman Chrome.......can we say UD Exquisite? They make it, someone buys it.

Stop buying, they will stop producing; it is the card companies driving the bus, the public is along for the ride if you pay the fare. >>



"Flogged" is indeed a good word to describe many message board discussions.

I agree that if the only purpose of such an organization is to have a direct effect on the pricing of cards and the product offerings, then the organization is impractical. However, so is the concept of an organized boycott, etc. Bottom line is that every collector makes personal decisions everyday about what to spend their money on and will continue to do so, with or without an organization or another group doing a boycott.

I believe there are many, many other reasons for an organization though that go well beyond the pricing of cards and the available products. I've listed some of those at a very high-level in the original post. No matter what you collect or how much you collect, I think you would benefit from these other items and tools.

Then, over time, the organization may begin to carry some weight with card manufacturers or other hobby companies. If it does, great. If it does not, that's not a problem since collectors are still getting more enjoyment out of the hobby thanks to some of the things the organization is doing in the areas of Promotion, Advocacy, Protection, Education and Resources .

-Bob

Stone193

Bob
On the organization of collectors - who are these "people" that are going to give direction and coalesce the interests of such a diverse group of people?
Are you talking about high end collectors? e.g.
Mike

TCC

<< <i>On the organization of collectors - who are these "people" that are going to give direction and coalesce the interests of such a diverse group of people? Are you talking about high end collectors? e.g. >>



Direction would actually come from 2 different methods.

The first method would be an extensive survey/market research system. With this method, every member of the organization would be able to have "a say" by completing online surveys. Roll up all of the data gathered by the surveys and you have very valuable feedback about any aspect of the hobby - all from the perspective of collectors. Obviously there would be some need to understand some things about the members to even better use the gathered data. Bottom line is that this is an area that could benefit significantly from web-based tools and market research techniques.

The second method would be the Hobby Advisory Board. This is the area that possibly is open to "politics" per your previous concerns. My first thought would be that this is a group of 7-10 collectors who represent various segments of the larger community. The group would definitely contain vintage and modern collectors. This group would also be the ones that may directly interface with companies, so it would be important to make sure that these individuals are able to be professional and can communicate clearly. My feeling is that just like we quickly begin to realize who the "solid contributors" are on a message board, the same would be true when selecting collectors for this group.

In my opinion, the first method is the most powerful one as it opens the communication lines for everyone and would also result in measurable output. Data is what "speaks" to companies making business decisions, so data is what they should be given not feelings, summaries of message board threads, etc. Gather the data, present it to them and see what develops.

-Bob

calleocho

it worked for the seniors...and they can barely remember where they parked.

How would this Club be funded?

Stone193

<< <i>How would this Club be funded? >>


Good question and who is going to 'prime the pump' on this ad hoc organization - who wants to foot the bill for the "information gathering"?
As I have alluded to - two major groups that you don't want in the 'representation' are dealers and promoters since their point of view is self-explanatory.
Mike

CON40

Noble idea, but methinks it would just be exploited by the card manufacturers to drum up more sales for "exclusive member" sets and the like...

TCC

<< <i>

<< <i>How would this Club be funded? >>


Good question and who is going to 'prime the pump' on this ad hoc organization - who wants to foot the bill for the "information gathering"?
As I have alluded to - two major groups that you don't want in the 'representation' are dealers and promoters since their point of view is self-explanatory. >>



I think the question of funding is in many ways related to the question of whether collectors care strongly about whether this is an association (non-profit organization) vs. a club. Depending on that, the sources of funding would be somewhat different. In other words, an association would likely be more heavily geared toward getting its funding through membership fees, periodicals, etc. A club, on the other hand, is often run as a business and would be funded by those running it and the methods they choose. Does anyone have a strong opinion on association vs. club?

I agree that dealers and promoters are their own entities and would not be represented as such by the organization. The organization is for collectors (consumers of those other entities).

-Bob

TCC

<< <i>Noble idea, but methinks it would just be exploited by the card manufacturers to drum up more sales for "exclusive member" sets and the like... >>



This implies that you believe the manufacturers would actually pay attention to the organization and its feedback. That is more than some collectors are willing to say.

On the exploitation issue, that can only happen if allowed, but something to consider.

-Bob

hojodojonono

Al-Carda sounds like a great idea. The path to enjoying the hobby is with personal sacrifice. Only then will you enjoy Upper Deck packs that pay off at 500 to 1 and a harem of many virgins.

TCC

For all of you that have said the idea is "noble" or "great" and then added a "but", do you believe there is no need for or value to such an organization or are simply convinced that it would not work (for any reasons) and, therefore, take the position that it's not worth attempting?

-Bob

calleocho

can you point to some examples where a club like the one you are proposing has worked?

ANA....AARP..etc..

coins are minted by the MINT (US)..so they have regulations ...cards are not regulated, it also depends on the MLB, NBA, NFL ..etc.

how much muscle would this club have?

this board along with a few others already are sort of a club ..not very organized...but most news and general interests are expressed here

Stone193

<< <i>this board along with a few others already are sort of a club >>


I think Bob is looking for something a little more sophisticated than a club with a chat room with all due respect. We are talking about an organization of collectors in the same way the AMA, ADA, ABA etc. function. There is a collective voice, potential meetings, local chapters, a set of rules and by-laws, membership, continuing education both at meetings and correspondence via the internet. The national chapter would elect representatives that function to interface with the promoters, grading companies, card manufacturers etc.
Mike

TCC

<< <i>can you point to some examples where a club like the one you are proposing has worked?

ANA....AARP..etc..

coins are minted by the MINT (US)..so they have regulations ...cards are not regulated, it also depends on the MLB, NBA, NFL ..etc.

how much muscle would this club have?

this board along with a few others already are sort of a club ..not very organized...but most news and general interests are expressed here >>



I guess that depends on what you mean by "has worked". There are many very large organizations and clubs out there with memberships in the 10s of thousands, so they would likely be viewed as successful. For example, The Sports Car Club of America has over 60,000 members. They also sponsor or host thousands of events each year (Promotion from my original post). The ANA has over 28,000 members and has survived for over 100 years now.

I do agree with you though that the ANA is different than sports cards. In fact, the US Congress chartered the ANA. Not sure that we should expect that to happen here or that we would want it.

By your question about "muscle", you seem to come back to the point that the only purpose of such an organization is to directly influence the card companies - that is what would define success. I guess I'm still not believing that the group should be so narrowly focused. If the organization had 30,000 members, hosted thousands of card shows and events each year, supported Trade Nights around the country on a weekly basis, exposed fraud, etc., would you think that the idea "worked" - even if the card companies are still putting out the same type of products as today?

You're correct in that the web is full of active message boards about sports cards. However, have any of them caused any change by the manufacturers (that we know of)? Probably not. Companies just aren't likely to keep up with everything being said and each thread is still only a handful of collectors. Now, have 10-30,000 collectors fill out surveys, compile the data and make it available and somebody will listen. If the existing companies do not, someone else may just decide that their road to success is to come out as a new manufacturer - one that responds to collectors.

-Bob

TCC

<< <i>I think Bob is looking for something a little more sophisticated than a club with a chat room with all due respect. We are talking about an organization of collectors in the same way the AMA, ADA, ABA etc. function. There is a collective voice, potential meetings, local chapters, a set of rules and by-laws, membership, continuing education both at meetings and correspondence via the internet. The national chapter would elect representatives that function to interface with the promoters, grading companies, card manufacturers etc. >>



This is generally correct or at least shows that it has structure and not just a new message board. Now, what I'm trying to figure out is if you're "warming up" to the idea?

-Bob

Stone193

<< <i> Now, what I'm trying to figure out is if you're "warming up" to the idea? >>


I want to be treasurer!

Stone

TCC

<< <i>

<< <i> Now, what I'm trying to figure out is if you're "warming up" to the idea? >>


I want to be treasurer! >>



Dealing with the existing funds should take up alot of your time. Are you sure you can commit to the level of time that is required?

-Bob

calleocho

Very solid points.

I still think the the sports cards and sports collectables is a young and informal hobby compared to coins and others and a lot less serious than cars.

But collectors could use an unifying voice, i guess. It should be non-profit that way it would independent.

Good Luck

TCC

<< <i>Very solid points.

I still think the the sports cards and sports collectables is a young and informal hobby compared to coins and others and a lot less serious than cars.

But collectors could use an unifying voice, i guess. It should be non-profit that way it would independent.

Good Luck >>



Thanks for the feedback and opinion on non-profit approach. When you see the amount of time and money alot of us put it into this hobby, you'd have to say that it's pretty serious though.

-Bob

shouldabeena10

I could also see where the grading companies, auction houses, ebay and manufactures might listen to an well organized groups complaints or "wish lists" a little harder ... than they would a few collectors throwing stones on message boards. Of course it would take some time to reach that position, but if it worked... it could be nice.

Maybe save members a little money on supplies. I imagine you could get a nice price break buying 10,000,000 card savers at a time.

Maybe track some realized auction prices, and put together a worth while price guide.

Maybe have a few members set aside to help others with web-site building for collectors pages, etc.

I could see a nice little trading forum coming out of it.

Maybe it could also have a group that focused on policing some of the evil-doers, and taking the time needed to get rid of some of the card doctors and ebay scammers we see over an over again.

I don't see a down side to it, unless it just completely failed or the board of directors steered it off in some crazy direction.

But if was truly a "collectors organization" and it's main mission and purpose was to help collectors and give them one voice for issues that effect us....

Well then ... I'll pay my $5 annual dues! If it's $5.01 or more, forget it ... cause I just have too many cards I need to buy this week.

Mike

Stone193

<< <i>I'll pay my $5 annual dues! If it's $5.01 or more, forget it ... cause I just have too many cards I need to buy this week. >>




Mike
Seriously, some great ideas! An organization like this, if put together properly, could have teeth. Think of the power that the AMA or the ADA has - the ADA just won a big class action suit against some big insurance companies! The same could happen to at least get the attention of ebay, paypal etc.
Key thing is that one would not want to let it fall into hands that would create a self-serving worthless bureaucrasy. Something like this would not come cheap tho - but if done correctly, yes, there can be fringe benefits like breaks on collection insurance, group rates on other items etc.
Most important, as Bob, yourself and others have said, create a VOICE that will be heard and respected and who knows what avenues may open up!
Mike

WinPitcher

Maybe it could be organized ala AA?

Hi my name is Steve and I am a card collector....

edited to add: J/K of course I think it would be a grand idea.

where do I join?

TCC

<< <i>Well then ... I'll pay my $5 annual dues! If it's $5.01 or more, forget it ... cause I just have too many cards I need to buy this week. >>



You'll have to talk to our treasurer about the dues.

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been working on plans for this for awhile and most of the items that you mentioned were on my "lists" as well, so it looks like there's at least 2 of us thinking about how nice it would be to have some of these things.

I honestly think we'll see some of this happen. It's just a matter of where and when.

The poll results still show this as a toss-up though.

-Bob

TCC

<< <i>Seriously, some great ideas! An organization like this, if put together properly, could have teeth. Think of the power that the AMA or the ADA has - the ADA just won a big class action suit against some big insurance companies! The same could happen to at least get the attention of ebay, paypal etc.
Key thing is that one would not want to let it fall into hands that would create a self-serving worthless bureaucrasy. Something like this would not come cheap tho - but if done correctly, yes, there can be fringe benefits like breaks on collection insurance, group rates on other items etc.
Most important, as Bob, yourself and others have said, create a VOICE that will be heard and respected and who knows what avenues may open up! >>



Now he's the treasurer AND the spokesperson/PR guy.

-Bob

TCC

<< <i>Maybe it could be organized ala AA?

Hi my name is Steve and I am a card collector....

edited to add: J/K of course I think it would be a grand idea.

where do I join? >>



Actually, one of the articles on my "to do" list is one from my wife - "Living with a Cardaholic". No lie.

Anyway, our treasurer will take care of your dues - just see the man with all the pictures.

Seriously, I am working with several people who seem genuinely interested in this. If anyone else here falls into that category, feel free to send me a PM. Don't expect an immediate response though since I'll be doing more "planning" at the beach for the next 9 days or so. When I'm back and all rested, we'll see where this stands and who all can help get it started.

By the way, we're all set with URLs whether it's the National Sports Card Collectors Association (NSCCA) or National Sports Card Collectors Club (NSCCC).

-Bob

Vargha

I voted "no". I'm not really sure where this kind of thing would be particularly beneficial to vintage collectors. However, if you do go ahead with it, french fry man and I are running as a ticket.

Stone193

<< <i>"Living with a Cardaholic". >>


That's no joking matter - seriously - my wife was gone this week and I purchased two game used batz and 2 pre-WWII cardz - put it on amex and she is going to KILL me when she finds out!


<< <i>National Sports Card Collectors Association (NSCCA) or National Sports Card Collectors Club (NSCCC). >>


The word Association is more powerful IMO - I would take it more seriously - which sounds better to you: the American Medical Club or the American Medical Association?
Mike

TCC

<< <i>I voted "no". I'm not really sure where this kind of thing would be particularly beneficial to vintage collectors. However, if you do go ahead with it, french fry man and I are running as a ticket. >>



Wouldn't be the first time that someone votes against something and then decides to run for the office that is in charge of running the thing. You might want to reconsider the French running mate too.

-Bob

TCC

<< <i>

<< <i>"Living with a Cardaholic". >>


That's no joking matter - seriously - my wife was gone this week and I purchased two game used batz and 2 pre-WWII cardz - put it on amex and she is going to KILL me when she finds out!


<< <i>National Sports Card Collectors Association (NSCCA) or National Sports Card Collectors Club (NSCCC). >>


The word Association is more powerful IMO - I would take it more seriously - which sounds better to you: the American Medical Club or the American Medical Association? >>



I wasn't really joking about it either. My wife really did say she was going to write the story, but then never has gotten around to it. As much as it might be a good read for everyone, I don't plan on reminding her to spend time thinking about my obsession, I mean hobby.

We keep coming back to the non-profit vs. company issue and the consensus seems to be a non-profit organization referred to as an association. So, Mike, you'll want to visit and bookmark www.nscca.org. Then, we need someone who actually knows how to start a non-profit...

-Bob