Anyone know if this is legit...

A761506

I constantly track auctions for 1952 Topps Mantle cards for a guide that I offer people though e-bay to help them avoid buying fake cards and being scammed with fake auctions. Anyways, the majority of "scam" auctions are easy to identify. Today, this card was listed, and I honestly cannot figure out if this auction is legitimate or not, so I was hoping someone here may be able to provide some insight. The card pictured in the auction looks authentic, the seller guarantees it to be authentic, but I'm finding something about this auction difficult to believe. The card looks like it would grade a PSA 8 or 9 in actually authentic. The card looks unaltered from what I can tell, and I highly doubt someone would even consider screwing around with a nice looking authentic 52 Mantle, so I'd rule out trimming.

The seller claims that he purchased the card raw at the National on the final day of the show. Supposedly, they had it looked at by PSA, SGC and GAI at the show and supposedly all 3 confirmed it's authentic, but decided not to have it graded because it would have required them leaving the card at the show and then having it returned in the mail. The seller normally specialized in autographs, and the majority of their auto's were PSA/DNA. The seller claims they would take $16,000-17,000 and end the auction. They offered to allow a viewing of the card in person in their hometown if someone wanted to fly out to see it.

Anyone know anything about this? I can't figure it out.

1952 Mantle Auction Link

Vargha

Guaranteed authentic, but unfortunately no guarantee about alterations. No PayPal or credit cards either. RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iamthegreatcornholio

I don't trust ungraded cards from dealers who normally sell graded cards.

Stone193

This guy may be looking for one big score then it's Adios ebay!



Stone

jrdolan

Well, he seems to have a lot of things in his favor. Good feedback, history of dealing in cards, many pics front and back, lists his phone number and address, and states where he got the card (which should be verifiable).

But here's the nagging question. Why doesn't he want to get it graded and sell it for much more than he could raw? Is his philosophical objection to grading so great that he will make that kind of cash sacrifice? He believes it is "NM+++++++ etc." The financial gain from getting it graded is certainly worth waiting for the next show PSA is at, or even flying to Newport Beach, if he doesn't want to ship it.

So why sell raw, and so quickly after acquiring? The doubt in bidders' minds will drive down the price. He must know that.

And the fact that he seems to be encouraging people to make a private offer so he can end the auction early and sell outside eBay... I dunno, despite all the apparent pluses, something feels wrong.

pandrews

<< <i>Well, he seems to have a lot of things in his favor. Good feedback, history of dealing in cards, many pics front and back, lists his phone number and address, and states where he got the card (which should be verifiable). >>



where does he say how he obtained the card? i didnt see it on the listing.. is it from an email that was sent to the seller?

jrdolan

<< <i>where does he say how he obtained the card? i didnt see it on the listing.. is it from an email that was sent to the seller? >>



I was referring to the statement of the author of this thread, who I assume received this info directly from the seller. If a raw 52T Mantle sold on the final day of the National, there are people here who could verify it.

pandrews

<< <i>I was referring to the statement of the author of this thread, who I assume received this info directly from the seller. >>



thats what i figured.. just wanted to make sure my eyes werent playing tricks on me on the auction page..

SoFLPhillyFan

My uncertainty lies with the seller's reluctance to leave the card with a grading company at the National. Wouldn't any of the grading companies love to say that they handled this great find and also help the seller auction it? I would think that when this card was presented it would have sparked some interest and the company would help ease the seller's nervousness.

Authentic yes, but my guess is the graders found evidence of some form of alteration and the seller knows this. The listing would then be accurate, but the card worth much less.

Don't you love how questions for the seller are posted on Ebay? In this case it may show the seller's true motivation huh?

Josh - you are the expert. Interested to hear how this turns out.

Keith

WinPitcher

what confuses me is even if it was purchased on the final day and all 3 top tier grading company's claim it was authentic, then why couldnt it be encapsulated right then and there? Why was the need for them to take it back to their HDQ. and mail it back to him?

card is most prolly authentic but altered in some way.

just my 2 cents


edited to add.....I also am wondering why the initial seller, be it another dealer or some jimoke walk in didnt have it graded either?

wlf3

This seller is an idiot. He "stole" $10k from me a year or so ago for some autographs and refused to give the money back and too tried to turn it on me by claiming I was trying to take him (somehow). I was the seller in this case, he wanted to return the items and never did and stopped the check he used to pay for them... then poofed.

I agree, why not have this high-grade example sitting in a slab, there's got to be something wrong as he went out of his way to make a statement that the others on EBay are bad, yet never clarified his own card. I did email him to ask, we'll see.

inFluX

wlf3:

Well do the same to him with this card! Win the auction send him a cheque and when you get the card put a stop payment on the cheque.

wlf3

Nice thought but if it's trimmed, altered, retored, etc hardly worth it

Stone193

<< <i> it's authentic, but decided not to have it graded because it would have required them leaving the card at the show and then having it returned in the mail. >>


Would it be reasonable to assume from the seller's statement that he didn't want to leave it with a grading company - then, he must have taken it home with him?
Anybody?
Now if this is reasonable, why did he tell me this:


<< <i>Dear stone193,

You asked:
"Hi, what is your return policy? Would you consider sending it to PSA for authentication if the item is won - then if it comes back fake the sale can be voided. Thanx, Mike"

I still have not recieved the 1952 I bought on ebay this card was purchased at the National last 2 weeks ago.

View this listing now to bid or purchase this item.

Item # Item Title Listing end date

5114188542 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 Mint Guaranteed Authentic Aug-15-04

Thank you,
abctrading

Veeery intesting...but confuzink!!



Stone

Ruthfan

This story seem highly unlikely. If the card is legit and not altered and he did purchase the card on the last day of the National it would have had to have been from a walk-in customer who knew absolutely zero about the card and this guy that is selling it was the very first person he tried to sell it to. An authentic unaltered card like that at the National would have lasted about as long as a candybar in front of Kit Young - seconds.

Secondly, I can guarantee that if this card was brought to any of the big three grading companies that it could have been bumped up to get it graded on the spot. SGC certainly didn't look like they had a huge backlog of submissions as they looked like that had hardly any business the four days I was there. I would have paid $100-$200 to have the card graded right there at PSA or GAI. I know GAI would have graded it on the spot if the guy was willing to pay for the hyper speed grading process.

All of the people from GAI are in Lake Tahoe this weekend, but I will find out on Monday if this card was actually brought to them and deemed authentic but not graded and holdered. You don't forget about looking at a 1952 Topps Mantle in this nice of condition and not grading it. This will tell if this guy is jerking averybody around.

The card probably is authentic but most likely trimmed or recolored making it virtually worth a fraction of what an unaltered card would be worth.

Todd

Stone193

<< <i>This story seem highly unlikely >>


Ruthfan
You posted the same time I did and probably missed my email copy - check it out - the guy seems to have contradicted himself with different emailers. He told me he doesn't have it yet and told another that he didn't want to leave it to have graded at the National.
Mike

jrdolan

<< <i>I still have not recieved the 1952 I bought on ebay this card was purchased at the National last 2 weeks ago. >>


If he is trying to confuse the issue, he is succeeding. What does "the 1952 I bought on eBay" have to do with anything? Is he saying HE bought this card from someone else on eBay who claimed to buy it on the last day of the National, and now he is reselling it before he even received it? Or is he dumping the National Mantle because he bought one he likes better on eBay that he hasn't received yet?

With all the uncertainty and questions around this card, is he seriously expecting someone to send him five figures? If he has been a reputable seller to this point, I can only think that someone else took him to the cleaners on this Mantle and now he is willing to sacrifice his reputation to find another sucker and get his money back.

With all the Mantle rookie scams making the rounds these days, I think we've all had it hammered into our heads that there are very good reasons why an apparently high-grade 52T Mantle has not been graded, and all of those reasons are bad news for a buyer. Legitimate ungraded Mantles do exist in the hands of serious collectors who have been around longer than PSA, but I don't think they change hands on eBay.

wlf3

Here's what I got when I asked about it and the authenticity:

I asked:
"Re the Mantle rookie... guaranteed authentic but ??? :altered, restored, trimmed? You mention none of these things, yet clearly point out how every other one on EBay is fake. Can you give me some more history and info - especially why a card this high-grade is not graded. thanks."

Answer I Got:
"I encourage you or anyone else to look at it please call me to discuss and make your own decision."

Like I said above, I wouldn't trust this butthead as far as I could throw him, but let's see what we can get as far as answers and options. I saw it's now over $1600 with LOTS of time left.

metsfan

I'm curious to see what this ends at. It really looks too good to me. I wouldn't touch an ungraded 52 Mantle.

iamthegreatcornholio

It got pulled from eBay.

Brian

wlf3

ya was just looking for it myself and saw it's MIA. Is it gone gone as i didn't see it listed in completed or in the sellers' history.

JonB

How about this one...

He may have relisted it here, although i never saw the original auction, this guy talks about picking it up at the national

A761506

I have not verified this yet for certain, but I think a new and improved counterfeit copy of the 52 Mantle is now floating around, and something tells me it was unleashed at the National by an attendee (and I have a feeling he/she only solicited other attendees). I think whoever created the new one got rid of all the common print flaws and managed to make it look aged, as well as the way a real 52 would look with an off-centered back. The only thing I have been able to really identify about this potential new one is that they all look very well centered on the front, there are multiple settings for the centering on the back (I'm thinking the counterfeiter made sheets of 4 or 6 cards then laser cut them), and they are all the variation of the card that does not have the black box around the Yankees logo on the front. If I can verify this with 100% certainty and it winds up being true, and I think that it very well may be, it could really create a new disaster for the 52 Mantle.

Has anyone else noticed anything like this? I've recently seen several of these cards, all look authentic from the scans, all look like they would be top grade cards as well.

JonB

The mantle in the auction I just listed above certainly looks real, but its missing the white print dot to the left of his ear. other than that the card looks authentic.

plus who in their right mind would store a real 52 mantle in a toploader without a penny sleeve???