1970-S DDO Lincoln Cent

jonathanb

My contribution to the best "coin rip" you have purchased on ebay and 1969-S DDO Lincoln Cent threads...




Bought raw from this auction on eBay, and is the single stupidest bid I've ever placed. The picture in the auction is just this side of useless, as is the description, but if the coin was genuine, that might be how a novice would describe it. Oh, and the seller had a whopping feedback of 7 at the time. I can't express my relief when the coin arrived and was definitely the real McCoy!

Which leads to the question... what's it worth? There have been a number of 64s sold in the $5K-$6K range at both Heritage and Teletrade, but I can't find a record of anything lower having been sold. Cherrypicker's lists $2K in XF, but I don't know where they came up with that number. Coppercoins.com lists $750 in XF, but I don't know where that number comes from either, and the rest of the prices seem strange (does one of these even exist in F? Why is MS60 listed at $6500 when every 64 I've seen has sold for less than that?). This is a Red Book variety, where it's listed with the ever-helpful "--". It's not listed in the Graysheet or the PCGS price guide.

General question: how does one come up with pricing for rare varieties that aren't included in the standard pricing guides?

Population for this variety is about 40, total, in all grades from both services. That's roughly double the population of the 1969-S, but no more.

Thanks!

jonathan

DHeath

ttt

DorkGirl

Coppernicus

Some useful information on this DDO can be found in this thread:

Link

Also, WELCOME!!!

Mike

JRocco

Hi jonathanb, welcome to the boards. I don't think that is the extremely rare 70S that you are referring to. There are a few DDO's seen on 70S Lincoln's and I think the big one is a much stronger DDO. Wait for Chuck (coppercoins) to reply as he will give you the correct answer.

jonathanb

<< <i>Hi jonathanb, welcome to the boards. I don't think that is the extremely rare 70S that you are referring to. There are a few DDO's seen on 70S Lincoln's and I think the big one is a much stronger DDO. Wait for Chuck (coppercoins) to reply as he will give you the correct answer. >>



Thanks to all for the welcomes. This definitely is the big one. I know that my picture is almost as bad as the original one on eBay, but in person it's a dead ringer for the image in Cherrypickers. I suppose it could be a die-struct counterfeit, but let's hope not.

I realize that there's no particular reason to believe me without better pictures, but I don't have a good photography rig set up. Sorry! Doesn't really matter unless i go to sell it, which isn't happening now anyway. Let's pretend that I'm right about the attribution, and go from there?

For those who have a copy of Cherrypickers, you can compare LIBE and IN GOD in this image to the pictures there, and squint your eyes, and sort of convince yourself that I might be right...

jonathan

coppercoins

I can vouch that it's the real thing, the letters are too wide in the right places not to be. Unfortunately this doubled die is so scarce I have never had a chance to examine one in person (believe it or not).

I would venture to bet that if you coin is not cleaned it would bring between $1500 and $2000 at auction, given proper lighting and microscopic photos. It probably does need to be slabbed and authenticated, and for that I would recommend ANACS.

seanq

You are either very brave or very stupid to have bid on that auction, or maybe both, but I agree it seems to have worked out in your favor. That is an astonishing pick up. The first thing I would do if it were my coin is ship it off to ANACS, that will put to bed the question of the attribution.

Part of the problem with obtaining a value on such a coin is that it is so rare it almost never trades. I can't remember seeing one in less than mint state offered, though Sam Lukes may have had one a while back. It might pay to drop him a line and get his appraisal. All I can say is that I think it will be worth much more than you paid for it.

Oh, yeah... congratulations!


Sean Reynolds

P.S.: I just noticed coppercoins' reply above mine - before you send the coin to ANACS, send it to him. I'd bet he'd trade you a killer set of microphotographs for the privelege of finally seeing one of these in person.

JRocco

I stand corrected jonathanb. I yield to the 2 much more experienced/knowledgeable people who voiced their opinions. I second Sean's advice on sending that coin to coppercoins to let him validate it for you. Congratulations on your awesome find. I am jealous.

Coppernicus

Chuck - Does the 70-S in this thread meet your description of a DDO#1 in the other thread?



<< <i>1. On DDO#1 LIBERTY, the date and the motto are all strongly doubled and it is unmistakable. >>



Or, are you saying this is some other doubling?

Thanks for any info - BTW, your book is great - I have #054.

Mike

coppercoins

SeanQ, Jrocco....correct. I would love to see this coin, and it would be of great service to its owner to have nice microphotos of it.

Coppernicus...This is it. It's the big one, as far as I can tell. I would of course need to see it in person to verify, and remember that the photos you have seen to date are macro photos. Believe me, one of these in person speaks a thousand words....even though microphotos are all I have ever seen.

Jonathanb - I would like to examine your coin, if possible. To answer your question regarding valuing rare varieties that aren't in the standard guides...watch a LOT of sales, auctions, etc. and watch the prices dealers of such wares charge for them. That's about all one can do for a good estimate.

RELLA

Sure looks legit to me.

RELLA

RELLA

coppercoins,

I know they're not microphotos; but the HI RES photos you have of this variety aren't exactly chopped liver, are they?

RELLA

shylock

Great find Jonathan, you've got good eyes & instinct considering the size of that EBay pic. Looks like one or two other bidders saw it too but they weren't quite as sure about it as you. Here's the Blay 66RD example for comparison, yours sure looks the same even on the lighter doubling on LIBERTY (especially the "L") and the date.

haletj

Do you think the seller thought it was a fake? It is just very odd... said "all sales final". If you were selling the real thing of an expensive coin that could easily be faked or misrepresented, wouldn't you be more than happy to allow people to bid and check it out for themselves?

shylock

My guess is the seller doesn't know it's a major variety, thought it was just some neat doubling, and is thrilled with the hammer price. I bought a far less valuable 1889 S1 DDR Indian cent recently the same way -- small image, described as "some doubling on the reverse". Taking a chance on an inconclusive photo and vague description is just about the only way you can make buys like this on EBay these days.

seanq

Man, it's 12 hours later, I read this thread again, and I'm still amazed at that cherypick.

I went and looked at the supersize pics on the auction. If I squint I can almost make myself think it's doubled, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. I remember now seeing that coin listed and blowing by the listing at 100 mph.

One of the other big-money underbidders is a CONECA member who has written several articles in Errorscope about his eBay cherrypicks. I don't know the other underbidder. I'm very, very impressed that three people were able to make that determination, and then gamble that amount of money on their instincts.

Sean Reynolds

coppercoins

<< <i>coppercoins,

I know they're not microphotos; but the HI RES photos you have of this variety aren't exactly chopped liver, are they?

RELLA >>



The photos I do have are rather nice, but they cannot be used for what I need photos for. Once the photos are blown up to the level necessary to see markers, they are blurry and mislit for markers.

I can't place the name Rella...to whom am I answering?

jonathanb

<< <i>You are either very brave or very stupid to have bid on that auction >>



My vote is for stupid, but I did it anyway. The only saving grace was that I didn't see the auction until there were two days left, so I didn't have that much time to psych myself out. And the seller was really efficient in getting it shipped -- the auction closed around midnight on Thursday night/Friday morning, and I had the coin in hand on Tuesday morning. Just as well. The suspense was... interesting.



<< <i>My guess is the seller doesn't know it's a major variety, thought it was just some neat doubling, and is thrilled with the hammer price. >>



That's my guess as well. I considered contacting them and asking if they'd close early, and decided that was asking for problems. Then I considered telling them after I received the coin, and decided that it would come out as rubbing their nose in it. So I guess we'll never know.



<< <i>I'm very, very impressed that three people were able to make that determination, and then gamble that amount of money on their instincts. >>



FWIW, I've never had a bad experience on eBay. I don't bid on much, but I must be due for problems. I figured I'd go out in style, huh? :-)


Coppercoins, I may take you up on your offer, but not this second. I'm not keen on shipping this anywhere. I'll let you know if I change my mind.


One thing I am curious about is that two separate people recommended ANACS. I don't plan on selling this, so I probably won't get it slabbed at all, but why ANACS as opposed to certain other obvious choices? In fact, the spots in front of the face are a little bothersome in person, and it might be safest to go with ANACS rather than risk a BB somewhere else, but is there any other reason? I have a 1971-S DDO Ike (FS-015.8) as well; if I ever get either of them slabbed, I'd probably do both at once. That's another one that's real tough to find a price on, but the doubling is nothing like the 1970-S cent even tough that's the only Ike listed in Cherrypickers.

jonathan

JRocco

Looking at the coin pictured in shylock's link and then looking again at your pic, it looks more obvious to me now. Sorry I looked too quickly last night and then jumped to a conclusion without looking closer. Once again...that is a great score jonathanb, you have a good eye and nerve the size of Pittsburgh. One piece of advice, for all its worth to you, ---Don't sell that puppy too quickly, its worth more than you think.

coppercoins

<< <i>Coppercoins, I may take you up on your offer, but not this second. I'm not keen on shipping this anywhere. I'll let you know if I change my mind.


One thing I am curious about is that two separate people recommended ANACS. I don't plan on selling this, so I probably won't get it slabbed at all, but why ANACS as opposed to certain other obvious choices? In fact, the spots in front of the face are a little bothersome in person, and it might be safest to go with ANACS rather than risk a BB somewhere else, but is there any other reason? I have a 1971-S DDO Ike (FS-015.8) as well; if I ever get either of them slabbed, I'd probably do both at once. That's another one that's real tough to find a price on, but the doubling is nothing like the 1970-S cent even tough that's the only Ike listed in Cherrypickers.

jonathan >>



Thanks for considering it as a possibility in the future. Whenever you're ready (if ever) just send a PM.

As for why choose ANACS - they ARE the obvious choice for die variety collectors who want their coins in holders with proper designations. PCGS never figured out the obvious and other companies can be less than reliable. ANACS' grading of Lincolns is second to none, and they are good about attributing die varieties.