A comparison of my recent NGC/PCGS modern submission.

DHeath

Over the last two months, I submitted a few coins raw to NGC for grading, cracked them out and then submitted them to PCGS. Both submissions were Modern tier at each service. My sample was not large enough to be hugely meaningful, but I thought it was worth sharing since there's so much discussion regarding the grading at each service. This post is not intended to rag on either service, as the grading was quite credible at both services. Grades are opinions. I'll post my opinion of the coins as well. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions of what any of this means.

First, the NGC results. These coins were graded 5-28-04 and 6-2-04.



The coins.



The PCGS results.



66 Lincoln 66 RD to 67 RD
68-S Washington - unchanged
68-S Washington - unchanged
69-S Kennedy 68CA to 69 CA
70-S Kennedy 67CA to 68Dcam
71-S Kennedy 68CA to 67CA

As you can see, three of the coins upgraded, and one downgraded. Two stayed the same. One of the coins went from cam to dcam.

One of the coins that moved the most was the 70 half pictured below. It has a planchet flaw on the reverse at 4:00 that's actually a pit about the size of the head of a pin. It is not visible in the pic. I think PCGS got this one right.




The Lincoln is IMO a 66. It has decent contrast, and on the right day might get into a cam holder. I think NGC got it technically right with 66, but felt 66 * would have been more correct. PCGS liked the contrast well enough to bump it to 67. I agree with the market grade, as the difference in money is trivial.

The two 69 Washingtons were both technically graded at both services IMO. The 69's are very much like the 71 proof Kennedy's in that they don't typically come heavily frosted. There are less contrasted examples in Dcam/Ucam in all holders. They were NOT market graded. Each has one of the best sides possible for the date, and to the casual observer, it makes the opposite side look weak. Either could have dcam'd on the right day with a Washington proof specialist. IMO I was quite surprised NGC didn't star either of these coins.




The 69 half is a coin that fits either holder.

The 71 half is indeed an 8 in my mind. NGC got this one right. It's got light reverse contrast, and was a "who knows" shot at dcam.

Who knows, maybe for fun, I'll lock this batch up and do it again next year.

coinguy89

Those are great results, im wondering are coins like this worth submiting?

Numismanic

That 70-S half is sweet!

ursabear

They're definitely worth preserving and collecting. They're gorgeous coins with truly good eye appeal. I would have them slabbed if I were the collector, if only for the professional opinion and the preservation.

That '70 Kennedy is a lovely example (and a great picture, too!) Don. If you ever wish to sell it, please talk to me first. I need a good 70s proof JFK like that for my (trying to rebuild after I sold off my collection) type collection.

The Washingtons seem to be DCAM to me. Perhaps the reverses are weaker than they should be for DCAM, but I think they're exceptional coins for the year of issue.

Thanks for sharing the informative and interesting post Mr. Heath!

DHeath

Scott, the 69 Washingtons are $700+ coins in 69 Dcam. The 70 half is a $400+ coin in 69 Dcam. The Lincoln is a $1000+ coin in Cam. The 71 Kennedy is a $100+ coin in 68 Dcam. These are almost coins. None of them made the mark. I had limited expectations for them, but submissions are not terrible expensive.

shmort6552

Don: Thanks for the posting. Very educational for a newbie to grading like myself. I agree that the coins could go up/down depending on whether the groundhog sees its shadow.
Very informative.

IrishMike

Interesting and you are getting really good with the camera. Not surprised at the grades with your eye and I think you might have slowed down some of the myth making that often pops up here.

coinguy89

<< <i>Scott, the 69 Washingtons are $700+ coins in 69 Dcam. The 70 half is a $400+ coin in 69 Dcam. The Lincoln is a $1000+ coin in Cam. The 71 Kennedy is a $100+ coin in 68 Dcam. These are almost coins. None of them made the mark. I had limited expectations for them, but submissions are not terrible expensive. >>



Thats odd I see coins that look almost just like yours in dealer junks boxes, for like a dollar, no offense to your coins. Is it that at these super grades their worth that much more? Or is that the cameo and deep cameo? I just don't see(if thats what it is) how it makes all the difference. Forgive me, I know nothing of proofs.

DHeath

Scott,

I take NO offense. Most moderns aren't rare at all. They're only conditionally rare. Those that are trying to put up the best set for the future are looking for the extreme examples of quality. That's why they're pricey.

ksteelheader

Great informitive post!

Now, bring those "almost" coins along to Pittsburgh and I'll relieve you of the pressure of having them!..

Russ

<< <i>The 71 Kennedy is a $100+ coin in 68 Dcam. >>



Uh, Don, have any you want to sell me at that price?

Russ, NCNE

braddick

Don, I love these 'first hand' experiences with coins and the two top Services! Thanks for a well thoughtout presentation. It's a keeper!

I truly believe there is a glitch in the system, so to speak, and many beautiful CAMEO and DEEP CAMEO Modern (post 1964) coins are to be had with NGC (especially with their new font/insert) vs PCGS.

My two recent returns from NGC proves to me they've tightened up a bit. I like it.

ursabear

Scott, what Don said.

Further to the point... mint quality was truly awful at least from the mid sixties to the early 80s. '68-'72 proofs were notorious for over-used dies and poor preparation. It is truly common to find these with a cameo obverse and a brilliant revers (or vice-versa). Many times the conditional collectability of these coins is when you find one that has a great cameo on BOTH the obvers and reverse.

coinguy89

Okay, I believe I understand now. Would Kennedys be worth the most in these circumstances considering they're the biggest so they would be able to have more defects?

relayer

Very interesting post and expirement.

A few months ago I bought some 1982-D Washington 50c NGC MS68 for $25 each and 80% made MS68 at PCGS and sold them for $65-$80 - except the last one that sold for $16.

The price guide used to list these for $100, now it's at $65

I guess PCGS and NGC are the same thing, only different.

DHeath

Thanks Ken. It's unbearable having them.

Scott, to finish my thought, I'm over-simplifying. There are a number of ways to collect moderns, and the variety is almost without boundary. Just for fun, I'll put up a few 1966 halves that make my point.

The first coin is a coindition rarity. It is a VERY early strike from a VERY delicate set of dies. It is a condition rarity. and quite expensive.




The second coin is the same date coin from a VERY abraded die pair that had been polished until the detail started to disappear. Notice the bridge of the nose is completely gone, as are the designers initials on the reverse. It is also a condition rarity, and fairly pricey. Look how soft the reverse detail is, and how the stars are almost absent, even though the coin's well struck. It is an abraded die coin that's the result of repeated die repolishing by mint workers.






Fun is where you find it.

ursabear

Scott,

Rhyme and reason on the value of them is mostly due to supply, demand, and collector community interest. Conditionally, yes, the halves are probably harder to get in high grade, but by the same token, the dimes are tough too (they're really small, and the dies seem to work themselves out of high grade strike-ability just as quick as the big silver coins).

coinguy89

Okay, I understand, I might try and cherry pick(if thats what they would call it with these too)sometime. My dad is gonna buy me I think 8 submissions for PCGS or NGC and 8 for himself in a few months, so that might be something try, not sure though yet, but sounds neat.

ursabear

Enjoy, Scott. Cherrypicking double-sided DCAM proofs from that era is fun. You'd be surprised how hard it is (and how much fun it is) looking for them. Best of luck to you!

Enjoy coins any way you want and can afford. Have fun along the way.

coinguy89

<< <i>Enjoy, Scott. Cherrypicking double-sided DCAM proofs from that era is fun. You'd be surprised how hard it is (and how much fun it is) looking for them. Best of luck to you!

Enjoy coins any way you want and can afford. Have fun along the way. >>



Thank you, I just might try it. My dad has been collecting proof sets, and he has 20 years worth now, and he said we'll look them over, choose the best and send them in and see how they show up. Great father son bonding, I got him into coins.

Russ

<< <i>The first coin is a coindition rarity. It is a VERY early strike from a VERY delicate set of dies. It is a condition rarity. and quite expensive. >>



I get a woodie every time I see that coin.

Russ, NCNE

DHeath

I'm trying not to form a mental image.

Myqqy

I get a woodie every time I see that coin.

That's called "sharing too much"!!

Does anybody have personal experience or opinion about NGC's recent grading of pre-64 proofs, and if that grading has also tightened up recently??

DHeath

Myqqy,

That's a gap for me right now. Maybe someone else can answer. I've got some older stuff in right now, but all circ./ low MS.

Manorcourtman

I guess PCGS needs to tighten up on the SMS coins. They obviously are way to easy on Kennedy Halves as I had always suspected. They are giving away CAM and DCAM Kennedy grades like AGC/ACG is giving away MS70's on modern proofs. What a shame.
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Just kidding!! Relax people!! It's the weekend!! Thanks Mr Heath for the stats!! Chris