Nationals Grading competition - whaddya think?

FB

I see that Derek Grady won the PSA grading competition at the Nationals this year.

In the article it mentions that he's a Mastro employee and I believe that he used to be the head grader at SGC. What does everyone think of "graders" or "former graders" being involved?

To me, it sort of seems like people cough up $50 to enter a home run hitting contest and then you find out that Mark McGwire is going 3 slots after you. Fun? Sure... but the playing field isn't quite levell. If they do it again next year (and I hope they do) - I wonder if PSA could break it out into 2 categories.

1) for "professionals" graders or former graders from all card companies
and
2) for "amateurs" (you know.. slop-jockeys like us!)

Also - does anyone know the rankings past #'s 1 and 2? It would be nice to see the top 10 or so if possible.

Your thoughts?

dude

FB -- Well said on your analysis. Yes, it does seem that mixing professionals with amatuers kills the fun of it and if Grady and other former professionals continue to participate in the competition, it will make the whole competition a joke for Joe Collector and it will probably meet its own demise. I think in the future, they should just ban former professional graders.

KING KELLOGG

FB...

Sure...... It was fun.......


Sure.......It was challenging.......


Sure.......I got a nifty t-shirt........


Sure.......I placed 17th...........




For sure............. I guess I would of rather seen a "regular" guy take home the $2500.00........




............................Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........




Best to you Frank.


Larry

murcerfan

murcerfan

I wonder if he got a break on the 15% commission.

onegaucho

Hm. I thought it was cool that the guy won the $2500... until I read that he was a former grader and now an employee of Mastro.. just doesn't seem right at all or in the "spirit" of the event.

The McGwire analogy mentioned previously seems to have hit the nail on the head.

joker73

It's also a little too close to "employees and their family members are ineligible to enter" type rules most contests/giveaways usually have. I'd be a little miffed if I were a regular Joe entry ...

wolfbear

Now I'm glad I was too busy buying cards to participate.
Don't know how you'd keep the pros out of the competition though.

They'll be showing up next year in disguises.

Derek Grady in Chicago :

Stone193

<< <i>Derek Grady in Chicago : >>

JoeOrlando

Hello All,

For next year - we are considering breaking it into two groups but often it is hard to draw the line.

For example:

1) Should we ban former employees of all grading services or just the ones you and I have heard of?

2) If we break it into a dealer or collector group - how do you distinguish between them? Many are, in reality, both. What is the true definition of a dealer? Hopefully, you can see our dilemma.

3) What is a "professional" - how do you define that? Again, it's a tough call.

This was our first try so - hey - you live and learn by trying new things. I do appreciate your feedback but, to be fair to Derek, it was an open contest and he did not work for PSA before - and much like the World Series of Poker - anyone can take it or make it.

The one thing that will hopefully provide an eye-opener is the fact that the scores, overall, we very low. I hope this shows people that it is not as easy as it looks - the graders work very hard and really know their stuff. In addition, it seemed as if most of the contestants missed virtually ever single re-colored, erased border, altered card on the exam and we intentionally put in blatant examples. It's a learning experience for everybody, including PSA - maybe the test was too hard this year? We certainly did not intend it to be.

Next year, let me know what ideas you guys might have in mind to make this a better event - that's what PSA wants.

Take care,

Joe Orlando
PSA President

DirtyHarry

It was a nice gesture to award the runner-up prize. For the next go around, rather than attempting to qualify the field, which as pointed out is a difficult task....there could simply be two different "challenge sets" to grade. What I mean is something like:

Master Challenge Set - the selection of cards could include reprints, alterations, trimmed, recolored, etc... that present a high degree of difficulty, and thus a high knowledge level to decifer.

Basic Challenge Set - the selection of cards have no authenticity or alteration issues - so it just comes down to putting the cards within the correct grading standards/number.

Entrants would select either of the two. Open field.

Regards

joker73

Good questions Joe - I'll offer my take on two of them:



<< <i>3) What is a "professional" - how do you define that? Again, it's a tough call. >>



I'd say that if you've ever held a paying job that included any aspect of professional card grading as one of your responsibilities, then you're a professional. I'd suggest a competition for those who don't fall into this category, and perhaps also one for those who do.



<< <i>2) If we break it into a dealer or collector group - how do you distinguish between them? Many are, in reality, both. What is the true definition of a dealer? >>


The dealer/collector distinction doesn't seem very relevant IMO - there are many non-dealers on this board who know more than 95% of the dealers out there. I think the "professional" aspect is really the most important factor. I could handle entering a cooking competition against someone who cooks at home every day for their family and happens to be immensely talented - but if suddenly I'm facing Emeril, then I'd be a little miffed.

Just my two cents,
Robert

Basilone

I'm actually glad to see that a professional won the contest. It goes to show that there is some true skill in the process. What would scare me is if some "scrub" ended up winning and outscoring the professionals!!!

Thats why I didn't play....to use a poker term....I was simply "dead money" against the professionals.

FB

Joe,

I had never even thought of the possibility (beforehand) that current or former graders would participate. Like you intimated - first time events are almost never perfect. To be honest - I wasn't sure how you were going to handle this one.

I figured that I'd put the thread out here and see what people came up with. If you noticed - I didn't put down very many ideas of my own because I'm not sure myself how it would or should be handled. So - I took the easy position and just raised the question to the masses.

I liked the idea of the grading competition and hopefully, you guys keep dreaming up new ways to keep the graded card crowd engaged at the Nationals.

The only "Sure Thing" that I heard from a lot of folks involved "beer credits"...

So I look forward to Chicago next summer!!!

DaBigHurt

Guys..we're talking about grading baseball cards here, not cardiothoracic surgery. We all know grading is very subjective (how many times have you resubmitted a card to get a higher grade and actually got that higher grade?).

Buccaneer

<< <i>In addition, it seemed as if most of the contestants missed virtually ever single re-colored, erased border, altered card on the exam and we intentionally put in blatant examples. >>



I think viewing the cards through a thick, scratched, semi-clear plastic slab had something to do with it, even though I see the dilemma there too. Good luck next year.

gemint

I understand the difficulty in deciphering who's a professional or dealer. However, Derek is one of the top graders in the industry. Excluding him is a definite. I would say do the best to eliminate ex graders and let the rest compete (dealers and collectors alike).

gemint

Regarding erased borders, it's easy to tell when I hold a RAW card to the light at an angle and see the scuffed gloss. Viewing the card in a well handled holder is not so easy for detecting surface variations such as this. I'd recommend eliminating flaws such as erasures and recoloring. With recoloring, I also rely on the edges of the card and the varience in gloss between the touched up area and the natural card surface, which is difficult to see in a holder (unless we can use a black light).

Stone193

In light of the concerns brought to everyones attention, I have rethought my next contest and want to put the disclaimer in to pre-empt any potential disappointment.

Texas Longhorn Toothpullin' Contest - 25$ entry fee - winner takes home a cool Million! So if we have any professionals out there, I'm affraid you will have to disqualify yourself from the contest. Bring yer own tools and stuff! Good luck, y'all welcome now.




edit: spell master

boggs301012

I think that any one who sells or buys cards for a living in part or whole should be in a diffrent catagory. At the very least there should be a collector catagory for the AVG JOE. The guy who won shouldnt feel very proud in my opinion. ANd for 50.00 is isnt a contest it is a compettion.


JAMES

jaybyrd

I'd say that if you've ever held a paying job that included any aspect of professional card grading as one of your responsibilities, then you're a professional. I'd suggest a competition for those who don't fall into this category, and perhaps also one for those who do.

Does that mean PRO graders will be eligible or not.

murcerfan

schr1st

Man am I glad I didn't waste that $50.

highend

PRO graders would have a tremendous advantage in the alteration portion of the exam since thats all they deal with.

marty

This actually looks like a win for PSA. What could MW say if the former SGC head grader was the closest to the PSA grades. Does this mean that PSA and SGC are close in grading? I believe that Derek took the risk, what if he was not the best? I believe that since Derek did win PSA took the high road and gave away a card valued over $500. That was not in the original prize list. I would like to see PSA post scans of the cards, grades, alterations and how many of each guess for each card.

murcerfan

acowa

<<What could MW say if the former SGC head grader was the closest to the PSA grades.>>

From what I gather, Mr Grady won because he was able to spot the fake and altered cards better than everyone else. I think the "win" for PSA was more in the form of a validation of their value to the hobby in weeding out altered or fake cards.

I assumed like everyone else that the competition wouldn't have professional graders...but with that much prize money on the line...I should've known better. PSA obviously realized the faux paux and tried to make amends with the second prize. This was a nice gesture, but PSA needed to go one step further. I think PSA knew that Mr Grady had an unfair advantage when he signed up and should have let him know in advance that the contest was not intended for professional graders. IMHO, Andy won the contest...and in fairness to everyone who participated, Mr Grady should have been disqualified.


Regards,


Alan

Stone193

My final take: PSA made some mistakes. When I mess up, I consider compensation to keep the person happy and returning that way. The second prize was a nice gesture but doesn't make the others totally feel good about the experience. Simple solution: give all entrants PSA grading submission credit and this thing goes away. Just my opinion.
Mike

mcastaldi

Now I know if I were a contestant, I would have had a problem. If I were handed a bunch of slabs to assign grades to, I would have thought that none of them would be trimmed or altered. Consider - PSA doesn't slab trimmed or altered cards. They're sent back in the original card saver with an appropriate label - not slabbed. So since I had slabs in my hand, unless I had explicit instructions to the contrary, I would have concluded that if it's in a slab then it wasn't trimmed or altered.

Mike

Mantlefan

I was very surprised that a professional grader was permitted to take the prize. The concept of this competiton was a "fun thing" to try your hand at grading, to see how difficult it is and maybe to win a few bucks. It's akin to having a "Colonoscopy contest " and letting me [a Gastroenterologist] win. I feel the second place finisher should get the $.

mudflap02

Do the even have a World Series of Anal Probing? And if so, is there really a "winner"?

purelyPSA

Here's an idea. Have an "alteration contest" as a portion of the competition. Get a whole spectrum of altered cards, and then include an equal amount of unaltered cards. Have the cards out of the slabs and able to be held/rubbed/sniffed/whatever - after all, you would be looking for the alteration, not the grade, so a little bit of handling wouldn't quash the deal. You could use cards that are only worth a buck or two, so there's not much investment in it for PSA either. Sorting through 25 or so cards looking for 10 that have been altered - and listing what cards are indeed messed with, and what those alterations are - would be a big improvement. Then add the slabbed portion of the competition as well.

Just a thought, but I think it sounds like an improvement over the one just completed. And besides, since I'm planning on attending, I might give it a shot.

dalew

I want to know how many people participated in this contest. At $50 a pop, they break even at 50 people being involved.

Profits for anything over 50 people involved in the contest should go to a charity, unless that is how they paid for their luncheon.

Just wondering.

RG58

PSA should definetly return the money (50$) to each contestant- they should suck up there mistake and move on! We are not talking about much money here, are we? How many contestants were there?

Geez, were there any KID (under 18 yrs old) contestants- a tragedy if they coughed up 50$ and were competing against professionals.

Scumbi

I see my assertion that the carnival dunking machine would have been more fun has held up. 50 bucks to grade cards against former professional graders? Next year I think PSA has "Go Three Rounds With The Professional Wrestler" and win a cupcake. This grading contest is a bad idea. Give back the money and let the thing die.

Also, this isn't Joe's fault. The kid that won must have felt like a weasel taking the test. In most sports, once you've turned professional, you aren't allowed to compete in amateur tournaments. I believe that kid knew he was being sneaky. He knew this contest was meant for the collector. He will have to answer to a higher power....Bill Mastro. The kid is going to spend the next few years editing those hell-born descriptions.

S.

thegemmintman

Just my opinion, but I think this is a terrible outcome and defeats the whole purpose of this competition. Fix it PSA or drop it next time. It's insulting to Joe Card Collector. Too many collectors have such a negative attitude of graders to begin with. You don't need one snatching the prize that the little guy thinks he has a chance on.

Virtualizard

Maybe next year they can have a "Review and Encapsulation" competition.

Competitors will each recieve 25 cards, flips, and holders. They must correct any mistakes (sorry, mechanical errors) on the flips, insert the card into the holder, and sonically seal the holder. The winner is the one who includes the least amount of hair/other foreign matter inside the holder and does the least amount of damage to the card, while correctly identifying and correcting all errors.


JEB.

wolfbear

Even better, next year PSA could hold a whining, complaining, and Monday morning quarterbacking competition.
The winner to receive a box of Kleenex, a PSA crying towel, and a copy of "Poor Poor Pitiful Me" by Linda Ronstadt.

The competition figures to be fierce, so be sure to sign up early ...

WinPitcher

thegemmintman

A total waste of time and money for the amateurs. It doesn't affect me because I wasn't even there. I just feel that a lot of honest people just took a sucker punch.

qualitycards

Food for thought - Some people feel that trained chimps can grade as good as the professionals. On these boards alone I here alot about lack of consistency or that "I can grade as good as them" - So with that said, its ironic that an ex grader from another company steps in and wins the prize. At least it shows that a pro grader knows what to look for. I would hate for someone to make guesses on each card and walk away w/ the highest score.

Still, with that said, I feel that any mainline grader or ex-grader should not be able to participate in the future...jay

thegemmintman

<< <i>So with that said, its ironic that an ex grader from another company steps in and wins the prize. At least it shows that a pro grader knows what to look for. >>




Good point Jay.

purelyPSA

GMM - Is that John Kerry in PSA's grading room?

thegemmintman

<< <i>GMM - Is that John Kerry in PSA's grading room? >>




Yup, the grader of death himself .

slvnumber2

IMO all of the entry money should be returned to everyone that participated in the challenge/contest/competition after finding out the winner was a former "professional grader". The analogies about Mark McGwire... are very appropriate, and unfortunately this is a big black eye for PSA. With all of the constant complaining I read on this board about dealing with PSA, turnaround times, grades... this is not the type of publicity that PSA needs.

While PSA started the graded card market I think people are realizing that a lot of "PSA" has left over the past couple of years and with it has gone some of the service, professionalism, and expertise that made them the leader in the graded card market. Customer service, attention to detail, under promise and over deliver - these should be the benchmarks of PSA.

Vargha

My take is this . . . when entering into games of chance/skill, know the players.

UnAmuzd1

I have to agree with Vargha. The rules didn't prohibit other graders or former graders from competing, so why would these people NOT sign up? People should have expected the competition to be fierce, for $2500.

PSA ran an interesting event, and it sounds like they learned from it. I've been critical of PSA on other things, but in this, I just can't see that they did anything wrong enough to justify giving everyone their entry fees back. A couple of free gradings per person might not be a bad idea, but to give back all the money to all the people who signed up seems (to me) to be extreme.

I'm also pretty certain that if they (a) gave away $2500, (b) gave away a PSA 8 1955 Bowman Willie Mays, and (c) gave back all the entry fees, you would never see another competition like this from PSA. And I, for one, wouldn't blame them.

Congrats to the winners, and to everyone else who participated. Rest assured that no matter how low you finished, you still kicked the crud out of me.

Morrie

Buckwheat

I agree that someone who has ben paid to grade cards should not be allowed to participate in the future. But so far, I have seen anyone who participated comment that they feel as if they were rippped off. IT sounds to me llike it was fun for all.

FB

Rob,

Very true! We haven't seen any participants whine, complain or cry foul!

I think the idea on the contest was sound and the prizes terrific! Now, PSA has seen the outcome - if they tweak it a little bit for next year - it would be even better!

But I was ALSO thinking that they could add a PSA card STACKING contest next year! Contestants use PSA cards to build works of art! The Chrysler Building, Empire State Building, Venus de Milo...

BigKidAtHeart

my wife is a staff phototgrapher for a very popular
regional magazine (Southern Living) and also shoots
for nation magazines Cooking Light and Coastal Living Magazine.
She also shoots photos for Lowe's Home Improvement store's
magazine and Kroger's magazine that her company also produce.

so....
if psa ever has a Photo contest, I am all set with my ringer!



(as "tough" as maybe to define what a Pro is, next time
there needs to be new rules.)

SDavid

Just remember that, if you have a host of professional graders involved, your competition could use the results to promote their services.

Imagine if there were a bunch of gai/sgc/bgs/psa graders and former graders entered into the contest, and the winner was the head grader from PRO.