When will PCGS provide reasons why an NGC coin DNC (did not cross)

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

HRH Mr. David Hall,

I believe it has been years since PCGS (and yourself) has said you will provide a reason (or reasons)
why an NGC coin did not cross.At what grade will an NGC coin cross into a PCGS holder ? I feel this is of the utmost importance
to collectors with NGC coins.PCGS will not allow NGC coins in the PCGS registry.Then at least let us know HOW and IF we can cross our NGC coins
into PCGS holders.No more excuses,How about an announcement by the ANA?
By doing this there should not be anymore resentment against PCGS by irate Dealers/Collectors after they sell their NGC coins and the next guy gets them to cross into a PCGS holder.

Stewart

Numismanic

LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
1 21642858 1935-D 25C USA DNC

ScarsdaleCoin

an interesting point....but really people should buy the coin because they like it....not because it is in a holder......

Numismanic

I bought my NGC 65 1935-d quarter for its great eye appeal, it would just look better in a PCGS holder.

keoj

I agree. PM sent.

keoj

Steve

Stewart,
Somehow I believe this thread is your way of hazing David. David's primary objective NOW is to reduce grading times. We all know he said he would have reasons for DNC added in the future. You know and he knows that will take time for each grader therefore slowing the grading process. Think about it. What will a grader's comment do to ease your pain? This whole grading thing is subjective. You may be the greatest grader in the world, but bottom line, it is YOUR opinion. Unfortunately, when ever MONEY is involved with people's opinion things get "hot". I just wish we could enjoy our hobby for the beauty of the coins and their sometimes rarity. Unfortunately, that will never happen. Good luck Stewart. Steve

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Steve

You are completely wrong.I have spoken with David on numerous occasions.He REALLY wants this point added to ALL crossovers.
The reason is because of TOO MANY MODERN SUBMISSIONS.Getting Competant HONEST graders is what PCGS needs more than anything.
You think I am trying to ease the pain? This is by far the most assanine thing you've ever stated.I buy the coin because I like it.I have a PCGS set registry.
I do not own an NGC Registry but I do buy NGC coins.When I want a reason why a coin did not cross or to find out at what grade the coin will cross I can call HRH up on the Bat Phone.
I am doing this so everyone can get an explanation that I believe is deserving..If one pays $50,$100 or even $200 don't you think an explanation is
deserving?

Stewart

FC57Coins

It seems to me that if a coin, regardless of what holder it's in, doesn't cross, it's because PCGS is saying that in their opinion, it doesn't merit the grade that you seek for this coin - period. If you send an NGC MS65 Morgan in to get graded, and PCGS starts saying well, it has too many dings, or it doesn't have enough luster, you can bet your bottom dollar that someone is going to dig up a worst looking specimen, that on a given day got the grade. By the same token, how many times have we sent in coins that we thought were one grade, and then we get them back in a lower grade and we're outraged, that would then be deserving of an explanation too I would think. This thing about explaining why a coin doesn't make the grade would become a nightmare to manage properly. Suffice it to say that if a coin doesn't make the grade - you're not going to get the grade. I don't think PCGS or any other service is going to give you more than that.

steelheadbob

I am not a lawyer and I didn't stay at the Holiday Inn Express, but I do think the legal issues would prevent PCGS from doing it. When you are talking about super rare coins a 1 point grade difference can mean thousands of dollers. If is a no win situation for any company. If they come back higher the old owner sues the other company for costing him money. If it comes back lower the new owner sues for paying to much. A grade is an opinion and it varies from person to person, day to day, week to week, and season to season.

FrattLaw

<< <i>I don't think PCGS or any other service is going to give you more than that. >>



Hmmmm...NGC does. They'll give you the reason for the DNC. At least they did for me when I tried to cross several PCGS coins.



<< <i>I am not a lawyer and I didn't stay at the Holiday Inn Express, but I do think the legal issues would prevent PCGS from doing it. >>



I am, but I usually stay at the DoubleTree and I can't think of a single legal issue why PCGS wouldn't. The DNC is a totally subjective. It is their opinion, with no real standards to go by, unlike grading. There are a host of issues why coins don't cross. I think, as Stewart does, that PCGS needs to step up to the plate and start telling their customers why a coin doesn't cross. There's no harm, except for perhaps not getting the coin back at a later date for another try.

Michael

IrishMike

You are already paying for their opinion when you submit a coin therefore you aren't adding any more legal claims then you would already have if they provided the reason. It sounds like a parent telling the child "because I am the parent" rather than explaining themselves. I agree with Stewart.

GoYankees

Do PCGS and NGC inform their customers of the reason for a DNC if the original slab contained a counterfeit or doctored, altered, and/or whizzed slabbed coin (without any mention on the original slab)?

joeyuk

I thought the idea of third party grading was to remove some of the subjectivity so sight unseen purchases can be relied on. The more we understand how and why they grade what they do the better we can decide which coins to send in. That would mean less money for PCGS. Now I understand why we are kept in the dark. jmho

jacktheknife

I agree with Stewart.

After many years of collecting just ONE type of coin, I think I have a pretty good handle on grading that ONE coin. I buy the coin, not the holder. So, when I buy an NGC coin and want to cross it to PCGS and it doesn't, I'd like to know why. Part of the reason I want to know why is that I am suspicious that PCGS doesn't cross them simply because it's in an NGC holder. I'd like to see a reply with my grading fee.

dorkkarl

i think it's a stupid idea, & if i collected plastic, would hope that pcgs would never stoop to that. i mean, who cares? a blanket answer would suffice: "different gradeing standards".

K S

coinbuf

One point that needs to be made in this thread; the very best reason that PCGS should give an explanation for any bodybag coin is to enlighten the collector. This process gives PCGS or any tpg service a chance to "teach" the collector as to what he/she may have missed when thay looked at the coin. The giving of a reason will help to educate the collector base, heck I'd even pay an extra couple of bucks for their insight. I may or may not agree with their reasoning but I'd sure like to know why. JMHO

Chris

Steve

<< <i>Steve

You are completely wrong.I have spoken with David on numerous occasions.He REALLY wants this point added to ALL crossovers.

You and I are in agreement on that.


The reason is because of TOO MANY MODERN SUBMISSIONS.

OK. Does that mean we should not have crossovers on modern coins?

Getting Competant HONEST graders is what PCGS needs more than anything.

I certainly agree. I guess you feel that they are not competant now. Like I have said, grading is subjective. I can certainly see how a collector who firmly believes a given coin should grade at a certain number and finds the PCGS grader giving out a different number (either higher or usually lower) to be upset and want an explanation. As others here have said, the explanation will probably not satisfy the collector. In the case of crossovers the argument is, "IF NGC gives a certain grade, why shouldn't the graders at PCGS give the same grade?" The answer may be that the two services grade differently. But whatever the answer, it probably won't satisfy the collector.

You think I am trying to ease the pain? This is by far the most assanine thing you've ever stated.

What I meant was that whatever comments the grader makes about the crossover not making the grade will probably not satisfy the collectors feelings about the grade. In other words, the grader's comments won't ease the pain the collector feels.

If one pays $50,$100 or even $200 don't you think an explanation is
deserving?

Yes, and that is why DH has agreed to do it. But he apparently wants to get the turn around time down before committing what will need to be extra grading time needed to write the explanations. I just don't think the marketing value of these explanations will satisfy most of the people who do crossovers.

Stewart, I do appreciate your responding to my comments to you. I really appreciate these boards where I and other collectors can exchange views.

Steve

Stewart >>

coltgus

As I've said before, I think PCGS would be better off if they did not offer a crossover service. How someone else grades a coin is really irrelevant to PCGS, what are they supposed to say, "it had 12 marks" or "we didn't like the strike" ? The coin didn't cross because it ain't a whatever grade to us, that's the answer to every DNC. I do think they could say we would have bagged it for ... if that's the case.

IrishMike

Craig not like we haven't heard you complaining about crossovers . I admit I've only tried it once. I purchased a nice cent from a dealer and we both thought it would cross and might even upgrade. It came back as a DNC twice in a years period so I finally cracked it out and sent it in and guess what, it came back a grade higher. That is when I decided not to renew my membership. If the so called experts have to make 3 attempts to grade it correctly then what chance does a part time collector have. What do I know I've only been a cent collector since the mid-50's.

centmaster

We may have the "rocks" to crack them out, but we may not have the stupidity, either. With the wild inconsistency of grading by human beings and grading trends being what they are, sometimes it doesn't benefit our taking a chance on a coin. I know I have recently sent in a few dozen Lincolns in 67 or even 68RD holders of NGC and ANACS looking for 67s from PCGS. I don't have to tell most people here that NONE of them crossed to 67RD. I may have "rocks", but I also have brains, and unless PCGS is biased when seeing coins in other holders (they claim they aren't), I have to conclude that I would have lost much more money if I had cracked them out.
On a side note to this: why, when a coin gets bodybagged or does not cross, does PCGS not even refund the money it would have cost them to encase the coin in plastic, print up a label and catalog the coin? They charge 5 to 10 dollars for a reholder, so if that's what it really costs them, then why not throw us a bone and give us that portion of our money back instead of throwing our coin in a flip and keeping all of our money?

Robgetty

Maybe I am in the minority, but I sent a toned seated half-dime in a NGC holder
in for crossover, and it DNC. It came back with a sticker on the back that had
a long list of possible reasons for not crossing and having the box for "possible
artificial toning" checked.

I thought that they were doing that for all crossovers that DNC.

roadrunner

PCGS could never do this. But if they did, the reason that they would give much of the time would be as follows:

"DNC, NOT because it fails to meet PCGS standards if submitted raw, but because we only want to select the very best NGC coins for crossing to perpertuate the myth that PCGS coins are always nicer and worth more money. This garners PCGS additional market share, develops huge grading backlogs, strengthens the PCGS registry, and generates more grading fees. Why give any slack to NGC when we have them on the ropes? Shareholders love this. And besides, we were here before those NGC upstarts! It's just business boys! Get over it"

I think that about covers the DNC issue.

roadrunner

airplanenut

<< <i>I purchased a nice cent from a dealer and we both thought it would cross and might even upgrade. It came back as a DNC twice in a years period so I finally cracked it out and sent it in and guess what, it came back a grade higher. That is when I decided not to renew my membership. If the so called experts have to make 3 attempts to grade it correctly then what chance does a part time collector have >>

While I don't know what coin exactly you're talking about, remember one other aspect you're forgetting. Crossovers mean grading through plastic--lustre can (and often is on brown copper) be impaired by the plastic, especially in the thick insert of NGC slabs. Also, if something is on the slab that looks like it's on the coin, the grader has to say it's on the coin to be safe.

From the aspect of photography, it's exponentially easier to photograph a raw coin than a slabbed coin; I can get the light exactly where I want it every time. With a slabbed coin, I can position the light, but I have to then adjust it to get rid of/reduce the glare of the slab. This is the same glare the graders see that impairs their view of the coin.

So when a coin doesn't cross and then meets the grade/upgrades when cracked, don't just jump to a slab bias. There are very obvious factors that make grading through a slab more difficult, thus a crossover coin will likely be graded more tightly each and every time.

Jeremy

tradedollarnut

Doesn't quite cover it all.... you forgot the 'DNC because it's too shiney' box!

uncleb

<< <i>I agree with Stewart. After many years of collecting just ONE type of coin, I think I have a pretty good handle on grading that ONE coin. I buy the coin, not the holder. So, when I buy an NGC coin and want to cross it to PCGS and it doesn't, I'd like to know why. Part of the reason I want to know why is that I am suspicious that PCGS doesn't cross them simply because it's in an NGC holder. I'd like to see a reply with my grading fee. >>



The reason why may be that you don't have as good a handle on it as you think you do. If you did, you wouldn't hesitate one second to bust that baby out and ship it to PCGS in it's birthday suit, especially since you know you can always ship it back to NGC if PCGS downgrades it.

I thought the mantra of PCGS was unbiased, third party grading. It's awfully tough to be unbiased when you have somebody else's grading cert staring you in the face. Sure, a customer can claim a bias against NGC slabs simply for spite, but there is another factor - the fear of being considered soft. When a good share of NGC slabs get sent back to their owners the message is that PCGS is tougher than NGC.

My personal feeling is that the graders have to think that the coin is at least PQ for the grade before they cross. Otherwise, they might get a big surprise when the coin comes out from behind the other company's plastic. It can hide problems, and their competitor had the advantage of seing the coin raw before making its decision.

FrattLaw

<< <i>When a good share of NGC slabs get sent back to their owners the message is that PCGS is tougher than NGC. >>



Okay, but what happens when a bunch of PCGS coins fail to cross to NGC. Should I assume that NGC is tougher than PCGS?

C'mon, it's all BS.

Crack'em out or take the downgrade. If the coin is a MS66 and either TPG gives it a MS65, all that you now have is a PQ coin that is high end for the grade assigned. If an idiot will only pay you 65 money on the coin -- don't sell it. Wait for someone who will recognize that it's PQ for the grade and pay fair money for it. I crossed a couple of toned Peace $ from PCGS to NGC at any grade and 3 got hit for a downgrade. So I waited and resubmitted them on walk-through and presto -- back to the same grade PCGS gave them.

Hmmmmmmm...

Michael

michael

roadrunner
Expert Collector

Posts: 2797
Joined: Jan 2002
Tuesday July 27, 2004 9:21 PM (NEW!)



PCGS could never do this. But if they did, the reason that they would give much of the time would be as follows:

"DNC, NOT because it fails to meet PCGS standards if submitted raw, but because we only want to select the very best NGC coins for crossing to perpertuate the myth that PCGS coins are always nicer and worth more money. This garners PCGS additional market share, develops huge grading backlogs, strengthens the PCGS registry, and generates more grading fees. Why give any slack to NGC when we have them on the ropes? Shareholders love this. And besides, we were here before those NGC upstarts! It's just business boys! Get over it"

I think that about covers the DNC issue.

roadrunner

-------------------------
Specializing in Mint State Liberty Seated - LSCC #140. Gold is currency once again.....
www.jsmineset.com or www.safehaven.com

michael

airplanenut
Choose Your Title

Posts: 11300
Joined: Oct 2001
Wednesday July 28, 2004 12:25 AM (NEW!)






While I don't know what coin exactly you're talking about, remember one other aspect you're forgetting. Crossovers mean grading through plastic--lustre can (and often is on brown copper) be impaired by the plastic, especially in the thick insert of NGC slabs. Also, if something is on the slab that looks like it's on the coin, the grader has to say it's on the coin to be safe.

From the aspect of photography, it's exponentially easier to photograph a raw coin than a slabbed coin; I can get the light exactly where I want it every time. With a slabbed coin, I can position the light, but I have to then adjust it to get rid of/reduce the glare of the slab. This is the same glare the graders see that impairs their view of the coin.

So when a coin doesn't cross and then meets the grade/upgrades when cracked, don't just jump to a slab bias. There are very obvious factors that make grading through a slab more difficult, thus a crossover coin will likely be graded more tightly each and every time.

Jeremy

michael

i think jeremy and roadrunner have hit on the two most important points



michael

doop

the deal is that they want their customer base to think their grading vs ngc is at least 1 point if not 1 and 1/2 to 2 points off, therefore - rely on "OUR" product. the case is for us,and most that we have bought so many dollars,walkers,commems,50-70 cams over the years and upon crackage get the same OR BTR grade when sent in raw. that's the simple facts about it. it's a marketing ploy of sorts of "our" goods are better than their goods.
OK...
let me relate one for the audience. about 2 years ago myself and another had an opportunity to view a 100 piece group all 1955 flat packs (they were like 65 bux then)...alright so i lost the deal,but i knew who got em and where they went. to teletrade/grade program, and i knew which ones were of those over like a 2 month 7 or 8 auction process.
i bought,at the same time i'm selling some the same date/grade/denom, sames service,etc, ones that i am also simultaniously buying back off teletrade (ngc pr67cam,pr68cams)
bought about 35 of these pups,i knew what the coins were and their origination,etc.
ok, on 2 subs i made 3 66dcams, 2 67dcams,6 67cams and 19 68 cams. (the 55 until 2002/early2003 in pcgs 68 cam was still lingering around 25-28 coins)
i paid an avg of 50-55 bux each for the ngc 68cams and 25-30 bux for the 67 cams.
most all were cracked out and onlya couple of just solid grades we sold on ebay....at first...
in the end, after the sizing up and cracking for raw submission what i had about $1400 in turned into around
$6500 hun....most of the pcgs 68cams i'ved moved out slow either back on TT or ebay, have 3 68 cams left...
so, IMHO they try to negate ngc being for the most part on most ALL series, being right on target with pcgs
...
and all the folks who started these firms were all together and in constant trading and ALL together formulated grading sets and guidelines that were essentially identical,even when jd,john and hrh slpit...

islemangu

The policy on DNC is what sealed it that I would never submit another so like said its just business. Upset me then but now after learning more here of the ins and outs of grading understand more the policy. As previously mentioned grading is not absolute thus grey areas must abound. The guarentee should naturally clean everything up. I think it should even be marketed that all shipping back and forth on all guarentee claims are paid by them

dorkkarl

<< <i>very best reason that PCGS should give an explanation for any bodybag coin is to enlighten the collector
>>

explaining a body bag is much different than explaining what something can't be dumped out of 1 piece of plastic & shoehorned into another.

i mean, once a coin's stuck in somebody's piece of plastic, what the he11's the point of sticking it in ANOTHER piece of plastic? be happy w/ the damm thing!!!

fliping coins back & forth between plastic co's is the epitome of PLASTIC STUPIDITY.

GET OVER IT

K S

badger

I would be happy if PCGS stated the grade the coin would receive if cracked out vs. just saying DNC.

Numismanic

<< <i>I would be happy if PCGS stated the grade the coin would receive if cracked out vs. just saying DNC. >>

cohodk

I have submitted coins to NGC for crossover and the DNC's came back with a sticker saying why the coin DNC. I think it makes for good customer service.