Yet another National thread
AlanAllen
Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭
I had comments on just about all of the National threads, so I figured I'd just post them all here.
My show: Most of what I bought was raw vintage oddball football from a handful of dealers that I had spoken with before the show. I bought about half of what I asked them to bring. All of the top oddball football guys were there, I spent probably an hour at each guy's table, and bought something from all of them (Mike Mosier, Michael Hattley, Joe Colabella, oldfootball.com, and Zindlers). My biggest purchases were a 1926 Shotwell Red Grange, and a 1938 Dixie Lid Sammy Baugh, which are now in Newport Beach. I wasn't able to fill any holes in my 1962 Fleer or 1989 Score sets, although I did find a couple submittable raw '62s. I also wasn't able to upgrade my Rushers set, and in fact only bought one slabbed card at all, a 1972 Jim Plunkett PSA 9 for less than it goes for on eBay. Overall, it was what I expected, which made it worthwhile. I knew from the pop reports that the chances of me filling any holes were slim, but I did find a couple of raw diamonds in the rough, and filled a couple of holes in my raw Marcus Allen collection. It would have been worth the trip just to view in person the cards I wanted from dealer's websites before purchasing them. I stayed within 10% of my budget
.
The sights: In case you haven't heard, SportsCards Plus had the bat that Babe Ruth used to hit the first home run in Yankee Stadium. It's in their upcoming auction, and was at their table on a spinning platform in a glass case with a security guard standing next to it.
Mastro's table had NINE, count them NINE Wagners displayed, including the PSA 5, the PSA 3, a GAI 1.5, a GAI 1, four PSA 1's, and two PSA Authentics. One of the Authentics is in their upcoming auction. It has had the entire left, top, and right borders trimmed off. The PSA 5 is an outstanding card, with great color, registration, and centering. It just has four rounded corners. The PSA 8 was again at PSA's table, but I heard some guy from Wisconsin say it was trimmed
.
A couple of new dealers had a very nice display of N162s, including a PSA 8 Beecher (the first football card). They were offering it for $8500, which is a lot less than a PSA 8 went for in Mastro and on eBay recently. I don't know who the dealers were, but it was two young Asian guys dressed like they were more likely to carry LeBron James cards than Cap Anson cards, which made it all the cooler that they carried nothing but pre-war. Does anyone know who they were? They were in the very southeast corner of the show.
BMW of course had some amazing stuff, including two Cobb/Cobb T206s.
Someone had a complete set of 1950 Topps Feltbacks football with yellow variations for $20,000. It was VERY clean.
GAI wax was ubiquitous. I love seeing a healthy wax market, but the prices are getting out of my range. I bought a '54 Bowman football nickel pack at the 1998 National for $200 - there was a GAI slabbed one this year for $1200. I saw the 1933 Sport Kings packs referred to on another thread... they both looked clean and I think were a good deal at $3000.
The PSA and GAI tables were always busy. I never saw more than one person at SGC. I agree with other's observations that PSA and GAI singles dominated dealer's tables, but GAI wasn't moving too well.
Since I haven't been to a National since I got heavy into vintage football, the quantity of raw stuff out there rather surprised me. One could build several National Chicle sets from the floor if he were inclined. I saw every 1894 Mayo card offered except the anonymous. There were tons of '48 Leafs. Basically, if you wanted to build a vintage mainstream set in "collector grade" it was all offered at the show.
The luncheon: It was basically what I expected, which was very cool. I met Joe and BJ before the luncheon, and both were friendly and recognized me from e-mail and my SMR article respectively. Marshall Fogel's speech was outstanding. It was logical and optimistic, and eloquently presented. The main points as I took it were:
- This is no longer a hobby, but an industry. This is a good thing. PSA has helped get us here.
- Don't be afraid to buy PSA 7's and lower. Completing any vintage graded set is a commendable achievement.
- Diversify. Cards are great, but there are lots of other exciting collectibles out there.
- Use the message boards to collaborate and educate, not to complain. A lot fo collectors read the message boards but don't post, and they get turned off by constant complaining.
- The market is not going to collapse. He spent a lot of time on this point.
The Q&A session was cool as well. Joe Orlando was not afraid to communicate that profitablity was the bottom line in their decisions, but at the same time made it clear that if collectors demand something, they will do it (because it will make them money). Things only got testy once or twice. He talked a little about their plans for 2005, which involve an optional report card service, which will identify where defects and/or alterations exist.
The best part was meeting other collectors. It's funny how perfect strangers can just fall into a comfortable conversation. It's not at all like going to dinner with clients. I didn't get to talk to anyone for very long, but I enjoyed all of the brief conversations. There was a fair amount of deal-making going on in the room, but all I did was sell some PSA sleeves to Basilone . What was cool was how excited everyone was to be there. There wasn't a frown in the place.
GAI: I submitted two packs that I bought raw off eBay a few months ago. I was told they would be ready on Friday, so I stopped by late in the day but they were not ready. I came back Saturday morning and Danny Fisher looked into it for me - it turns out they accidentally got put in the "take back to California with us" pile instead of the "do it here" pile. He jumped my order to next in line and they were done 90 minutes later. They both came back authentic (which I expected, but was happy about nonetheless), but I'm not sure about the grades. The nicer one (IMHO) got a 7.5, which wasn't too far off from the 8 I expected. The lesser one got an 8.5 vs. the expected 6 or 7. It has a tiny tear in the wax on the front from the gum, which I guess they missed because of the rush.
PSA: I was so mad at PSA, I can't even begin to tell you. There I was, submitting an order, when I notice two boxes on the "finished" shelves with Joe Tuttle written on them. Since I buy from him all the time and he probably had something I wanted in there, I figured I would just look through the boxes, take what I wanted, and leave enough cash to cover what I thought they were worth. The lady helping me refused to let me even LOOK in the boxes, unless I WAS Joe Tuttle! I don't know how they can stay in business with this kind of customer service. I think it was a reasonable "clerical" request
. Other than that, the service was fine and the lady even helped reinforce a very thin card that she feared would bent in transit. Joe Orlando was helpful in describing how to inform their research department about rare oddball issues that have never been graded before.
I can't wait until Chicago.
Joe
My show: Most of what I bought was raw vintage oddball football from a handful of dealers that I had spoken with before the show. I bought about half of what I asked them to bring. All of the top oddball football guys were there, I spent probably an hour at each guy's table, and bought something from all of them (Mike Mosier, Michael Hattley, Joe Colabella, oldfootball.com, and Zindlers). My biggest purchases were a 1926 Shotwell Red Grange, and a 1938 Dixie Lid Sammy Baugh, which are now in Newport Beach. I wasn't able to fill any holes in my 1962 Fleer or 1989 Score sets, although I did find a couple submittable raw '62s. I also wasn't able to upgrade my Rushers set, and in fact only bought one slabbed card at all, a 1972 Jim Plunkett PSA 9 for less than it goes for on eBay. Overall, it was what I expected, which made it worthwhile. I knew from the pop reports that the chances of me filling any holes were slim, but I did find a couple of raw diamonds in the rough, and filled a couple of holes in my raw Marcus Allen collection. It would have been worth the trip just to view in person the cards I wanted from dealer's websites before purchasing them. I stayed within 10% of my budget
.The sights: In case you haven't heard, SportsCards Plus had the bat that Babe Ruth used to hit the first home run in Yankee Stadium. It's in their upcoming auction, and was at their table on a spinning platform in a glass case with a security guard standing next to it.
Mastro's table had NINE, count them NINE Wagners displayed, including the PSA 5, the PSA 3, a GAI 1.5, a GAI 1, four PSA 1's, and two PSA Authentics. One of the Authentics is in their upcoming auction. It has had the entire left, top, and right borders trimmed off. The PSA 5 is an outstanding card, with great color, registration, and centering. It just has four rounded corners. The PSA 8 was again at PSA's table, but I heard some guy from Wisconsin say it was trimmed
.A couple of new dealers had a very nice display of N162s, including a PSA 8 Beecher (the first football card). They were offering it for $8500, which is a lot less than a PSA 8 went for in Mastro and on eBay recently. I don't know who the dealers were, but it was two young Asian guys dressed like they were more likely to carry LeBron James cards than Cap Anson cards, which made it all the cooler that they carried nothing but pre-war
. Does anyone know who they were? They were in the very southeast corner of the show.BMW of course had some amazing stuff, including two Cobb/Cobb T206s.
Someone had a complete set of 1950 Topps Feltbacks football with yellow variations for $20,000. It was VERY clean.
GAI wax was ubiquitous. I love seeing a healthy wax market, but the prices are getting out of my range. I bought a '54 Bowman football nickel pack at the 1998 National for $200 - there was a GAI slabbed one this year for $1200. I saw the 1933 Sport Kings packs referred to on another thread... they both looked clean and I think were a good deal at $3000.
The PSA and GAI tables were always busy. I never saw more than one person at SGC. I agree with other's observations that PSA and GAI singles dominated dealer's tables, but GAI wasn't moving too well.
Since I haven't been to a National since I got heavy into vintage football, the quantity of raw stuff out there rather surprised me. One could build several National Chicle sets from the floor if he were inclined. I saw every 1894 Mayo card offered except the anonymous. There were tons of '48 Leafs. Basically, if you wanted to build a vintage mainstream set in "collector grade" it was all offered at the show.
The luncheon: It was basically what I expected, which was very cool. I met Joe and BJ before the luncheon, and both were friendly and recognized me from e-mail and my SMR article respectively. Marshall Fogel's speech was outstanding. It was logical and optimistic, and eloquently presented. The main points as I took it were:
- This is no longer a hobby, but an industry. This is a good thing. PSA has helped get us here.
- Don't be afraid to buy PSA 7's and lower. Completing any vintage graded set is a commendable achievement.
- Diversify. Cards are great, but there are lots of other exciting collectibles out there.
- Use the message boards to collaborate and educate, not to complain. A lot fo collectors read the message boards but don't post, and they get turned off by constant complaining.
- The market is not going to collapse. He spent a lot of time on this point
.The Q&A session was cool as well. Joe Orlando was not afraid to communicate that profitablity was the bottom line in their decisions, but at the same time made it clear that if collectors demand something, they will do it (because it will make them money). Things only got testy once or twice. He talked a little about their plans for 2005, which involve an optional report card service, which will identify where defects and/or alterations exist.
The best part was meeting other collectors. It's funny how perfect strangers can just fall into a comfortable conversation. It's not at all like going to dinner with clients
. I didn't get to talk to anyone for very long, but I enjoyed all of the brief conversations. There was a fair amount of deal-making going on in the room, but all I did was sell some PSA sleeves to Basilone . What was cool was how excited everyone was to be there. There wasn't a frown in the place.GAI: I submitted two packs that I bought raw off eBay a few months ago. I was told they would be ready on Friday, so I stopped by late in the day but they were not ready. I came back Saturday morning and Danny Fisher looked into it for me - it turns out they accidentally got put in the "take back to California with us" pile instead of the "do it here" pile. He jumped my order to next in line and they were done 90 minutes later. They both came back authentic (which I expected, but was happy about nonetheless), but I'm not sure about the grades. The nicer one (IMHO) got a 7.5, which wasn't too far off from the 8 I expected. The lesser one got an 8.5 vs. the expected 6 or 7. It has a tiny tear in the wax on the front from the gum, which I guess they missed because of the rush.
PSA: I was so mad at PSA, I can't even begin to tell you. There I was, submitting an order, when I notice two boxes on the "finished" shelves with Joe Tuttle written on them. Since I buy from him all the time and he probably had something I wanted in there, I figured I would just look through the boxes, take what I wanted, and leave enough cash to cover what I thought they were worth. The lady helping me refused to let me even LOOK in the boxes, unless I WAS Joe Tuttle! I don't know how they can stay in business with this kind of customer service. I think it was a reasonable "clerical" request
. Other than that, the service was fine and the lady even helped reinforce a very thin card that she feared would bent in transit. Joe Orlando was helpful in describing how to inform their research department about rare oddball issues that have never been graded before.I can't wait until Chicago.
Joe
No such details will spoil my plans...
0
Comments
(Your name is very close to Tuttles, if you had flashed your ID, it might have passed)
Jeremy
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
We should arrange a get together to have the football guys finally meet? I would enjoy that.
Hope to see you there next year too, Greg.
I know you know this Jeremy, but in case someone does misread, the whole Joe Tuttle box thing was tongue-in-cheek (although he really did have two boxes back there).
Joe
Plus I really should be going to these things anyhow. I don't think I can avoid another one.
Yes let's make arrangements! See you there! Jeremy
May you please pass this information on to the masses?
<< <i>He talked a little about their plans for 2005, which involve an optional report card service, which will identify where defects and/or alterations exist. >>
I remember once asking about the possibility of them doing this. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but it's nice to see these types of things eventually come to fruition, or at least warrant serious consideration.
My idea was for them to add the extra information as part of the cert lookup and NOT part of the slab. The submitter would pay an extra dollar per card and the defects/alterations would be noted, along with the grade, when the cert was entered on the website.
Please keep me informed on any meeting of the football collecting masses at any show.....id love to attend.
Paul.
STEELERS4LIFE
<< <i>**Joe Orlando was helpful in describing how to inform their research department about rare oddball issues that have never been graded before.**
May you please pass this information on to the masses? >>
Sure. He said to include a photocopied page from a price guide (Beckett annual, Krause bible, etc.), and any other third-party documentation you think would be helpful with the submission form. I know from experience that if they can't independently identify an issue, they'll just reject it without contacting you, so you have to be proactive in educating their research department.
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>He talked a little about their plans for 2005, which involve an optional report card service, which will identify where defects and/or alterations exist. >>
I remember once asking about the possibility of them doing this. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but it's nice to see these types of things eventually come to fruition, or at least warrant serious consideration.
My idea was for them to add the extra information as part of the cert lookup and NOT part of the slab. The submitter would pay an extra dollar per card and the defects/alterations would be noted, along with the grade, when the cert was entered on the website. >>
I'm pretty sure he said it would not be part of the slab, but would be a seperate sheet like PSA/DNA gives you. My memory could be foggy on that though, and it might change between now and implementation.
Joe