Joe Orlando Editorial: September SMR

fsjeter

In case you haven't received your copy yet, he talks about two cut signature cards (one Ruth and one Gehrig). Unfortunately, both were cut clubhouse or secretary sigs and not authentic. Does anyone know the manufacturer or when this happened? This is the first I have heard of this. That would absolutely suck pulling one of these (no doubt ridiculously short printed cards) only to find out they're not real.

Scott

Stone193

<< <i>That would absolutely suck pulling one of these (no doubt ridiculously short printed cards) only to find out there not real. >>


I agree Scott
You can only hope that the company will make good on it - even if they give you different product of equal value.
Mike

MrRookie

Doesn't James Spence do the authenticating of the cut sigs before they are used in the cards? I have a few cut signature cards from 2002 SP Legendary Cuts and the backs say that the sig was authenticated by James Spence.

fsjeter

I don't know for sure. He, Joe Orlando, stated that the sigs were not authenticated before the cards were produced. Apparently the Gehrig was on ebay at a bid of $6,000 when he personally informed a dealer that the sig was not Gehrigs'. For obvious reasons he doesn't get into further details.

Scott

MrRookie

phreakydancin

Mr. Rookie, cut sigs are produced by companies other than Upper Deck, no?

fsjeter

"This cut was not autographed in the presence of a representative of Upper Deck but was obtained from James Spence/PSA/DNA."

Interestingly, it doesn't say he authenticated it, it says they got it from him.

Scott

jrdolan

<< <i>"This cut was not autigraphed in the presence of a representative of Upper Deck but was obtained from James Spence/PSA/DNA."
Interestingly, it doesn't say he authenticated it, it says they got it from him. >>


The authenticator is also PROVIDING the autoghraphs to Upper Deck? I assume not for free. Even assuming Mr. Spence's honesty and integrity are above reproach, this certainly has the appearance of a conflict of interest. You aren't supposed to sell the same goods that you grade/authenticate, for obvious reasons.

MrRookie

it seems like human nature would cause an authenticator/slash/dealer to believe that all of his sigs are real!

WinPitcher

typical of UD

envoy98

Seems to me the most recent auto's of these guys, and high profile, were from Donruss IIRC.

JoeOrlando

Two quick notes:

James Spence, as a full-time authenticator at PSA/DNA, does not sell anything - especially on behalf of PSA. We shut down James Spence autographs - the buying and selling operation that Jimmy used to run - well over a year ago. This was one of the first things I changed when I became president of PSA.

In case you are wondering, James Spence autographs - while never a part of PSA's division - was allowed to buy and sell at one time - until the PSA/DNA division could sustain itself. Today, PSA/DNA is very, very strong as many of you know...and, for those of you who do not know Jimmy, he has an excellent reputation (not only as an authenticator) but also as a person.

Secondly, in regards to the autographed cards that UD claims were obtained from James Spence of PSA/DNA, if you have any questions about them - I would suggest contacting the PA office. I am sure Jimmy can address if they were or not obtained/authenticated by him at one time.

In regards to the question of autographed/vintage maunfacturer cards (the ones I wrote about in the editorial) - I cannot remember specifically which ones they were (in terms of which manufacturer) but I absolutely remember anaylzing the autographs with our team. The conclusion was clear on our end. The point of the editorial was to encourage the manufacturers to use reputable third party authenticators so this could be prevented. I am sure that these were isolated/honest mistakes by the companies since the vast majority of the autographs are seemingly fine.

Take care,

Joe Orlando
PSA President

joestalin

don't remember which company..come on joe, stop sweeping this under the carpet. why must you all always
cover up for the companies? we need to know which cards there are. come on let us know.

thanks
Kevin

KallMaloneSay

Good luck Stalin, but with all of these potential lawsuits being thrown around in the hobby, I don't think you'll get a finite response on that one. Let's face it, a third-party authenticator can never say with absolute 100% resolve that an autograph is real, it is only in their expert opinion, with Spence obviously being the most trusted in the hobby. With that said, even if Spence/PSA claims a cut signature was actually a ballboy or secretary, then it's just a he said/she said with nobody really able to prove anything unless we hire a psychic to bring Babe Ruth back from the spirit world and ask him if he remembers signing that particular signature.
Jason

Tabe

<< <i>TIn regards to the question of autographed/vintage maunfacturer cards (the ones I wrote about in the editorial) - I cannot remember specifically which ones they were (in terms of which manufacturer) but I absolutely remember anaylzing the autographs with our team. >>


I'm sorry Joe, but I just don't buy this. Nobody at PSA wrote down which cards they were? If that's true, that seems incredibly irresponsible and sloppy...

Tabe

MrRookie

how can you really know whether that Mantle sig was signed by his secretary or by Mickey himself during one of his many non-sober moments? but Stalin is right, Joe knows what cards these are down to the last detail, but snitches get stitches?

fsjeter

Joe,

Thanks for elaborating further on the article! I agree that the autograph's should be authenticated prior to being put in the cards. My reason for asking those questions is so I am not on the buying end of any of those suspect cards. I'm sure there have been many more cut cards of the aforementioned since this happened. If they're still not getting them authenticated, how many of those that are already out there are not good as well? Hopefully the card manufacturers are buying hoards of cancelled checks to use for these cards which will surely decrease the margin of error in this regard.

Scott

NickM

Joe,

PLEASE look up and publicize which two (with serial numbers, if known) autograph cut cards were deemed by PSA/DNA's team to not be authentic. I believe this information will be very valuable in protecting buyers.

Also, would I be incorrect in stating that PSA would still grade these cards as post-1997 manufacturer certified autographed cards?

Nick

jrinck

I re-establish my prediction that the autograph market will be dead within ten years. Or was that five years? I don't remember. All I know is that the autograph business will forever be ripe with fraud and incompetence, and simply can't be trusted.

If you have a pen and some time to practice, anyone can be Babe Ruth.

JoeOrlando

My last response to this topic...

I do not think some of the board members understand the situation completely. We did not receive the signed cards as submissions, they were just items that we noticed on ebay quite some time ago. One was more recent than the other but, since they were not submitted, we do not have a record of them. This was just something I noticed and then talked to our authenticators about.

We do not record or document all the forgeries we see in the marketplace (if we did, it might take up all of our time). Our job is to render an opinion on the items submitted to us. As a hobbyist myself and as part of keeping track of what's going on in the marketplace, this was an issue I decided to cover in the editorial.

This is a concern but that is the extent of this story - I just thought I would share the thought. The wasn't about attacking any manufacturer - the point was to encourage them to work with experts so mistakes like these will not be made. If I was buying this type of stuff, I would insist that the items be authenticated by a solid third party.

Joe Orlando
PSA President

NickM

Joe - so no one saved the scans or auction listings?

Also, what would PSA do if those cards were submitted for regular grading?

Nick

joestalin

Joe

I appreciate your willingness to discuss this with us but I think that the collector NEEDS to know about this. As
you know these cut autographs go for major money and they seem to be the new hot thing. Collectors need
to know when this stuff is bogus. In the case of certain products there are the cards that sell the product.


Im not an ebay wiz but Joe has given us some clues...perhaps someone can check ebay and do some research? There
have been two cut sigs from timeless treasures sold recently..both Ruth and Gehrig.

I have an considerable autograph collection, I don't need to tell you what will happen if one of the companies
is found packing out forgeries. I think everyone got the idea when Pacific tried that crap. This is a major news
and needs to be resolved.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention Joe. If you can't give us anything else thats ok.

Kevin

MrRookie

this 1/1 billy martin by Fleer looks a bit iffy

MrRookie

what's up with that Unitas sig

ChrisStufflestreet

You really have to hand it to Joe Orlando...you don't see a lot of company presidents who respond to questions in a forum where he can potentially be blasted by customers. In my experience in dealing with companies, I find too many presidents/CEOs who will simply send out a form letter and let his underlings deal with the fallout.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, but I thought it was worth mentioning here.

Tabe

<< <i>I think everyone got the idea when Pacific tried that crap. >>


What's the story behind this comment?

Tabe
www.tabe.nu

mikeschmidt

Mr. Rookie:

The two pics you've included look like those standardized contracts that many players sign into. Almost like the autoball signature contracts that came into the hobby a few years ago - although perhaps these are more of licensing or other agreements.