NY Coin Show - as usual, bourse spoiled by dealers leaving too early
Sunnywood
Posts: 2,683 ✭
Dealers have been complaining for several years about shows that run Thursday through Sunday, because they need the Sunday to travel home. Historically, most dealers would pack up and leave ANA after the Saturday bourse, and Sunday would be empty. There was a fuss about this a couple of years ago. If there is one venue in the country that needs a regular show, it is NYC. The last major show here was ANA 2002. So a couple of professionals decided to get together and put on the "New York Invitational Coin Show." As an additional venue for auction houses that needed to get more material out on the auction block, this was a good thing. ANR, R.M. Smythe, Heritage and David Lawrence all took advantage of the opportunity to host auctions. There was also a bourse, with dealer setup & "early bird" professional review on Thursday afternoon, and retail bourse hours Friday and Saturday.
As it happened, the only times I could get there were Thursday afternoon or Saturday afternoon. Thursday afternoon I paid the $100 early bird fee and went in at 2:00PM. Nobody had set up yet. Dealers and wholesalers were looking through each other's boxes of coins in the usual fashion, but there were very few display cases set up for open browsing. So I knew I would have to come back on Saturday.
Many retail dealers complain that the auctions are siphoning off all their business. Dealers all say that auctions shouldn't be everything. But what do they do about it? I'll tell you what they do: they don't take the bourse floor seriously. They all pack up and leave early.
The New York show wisely did NOT include Sunday hours, thus giving dealers time to get home. So what did the dealers do? Most of them left early Saturday. By the time I got there Saturday afternoon at 1:00 PM, checkbook in hand, ready to BUY COINS, most dealers were gone. This is part of the reason that the bourse floor is declining as an important retail venue. The more dealers do this, the fewer buyers will bother showing up. It is particularly annoying that Saturdays aren't taken more seriously. I understand why Sundays are bad, but guess what, some of us actually do have jobs during the week. It isn't always possible to leave work on a Thursday or Friday to get to a coin show. Saturday is the ideal time for most of us folks out in the real world.
I would like to extend my personal gratitude to the dealers who stayed the whole day on Saturday. Dedicated dealers like Julian Leidman and Bob Hughes (and others) stayed the course. To the rest who were nowhere to be seen Saturday afternoon, including all the big names, I thumb my nose and give you all a Bronx cheer. I happily conducted business with several dealers Saturday afternoon, but undoubtedly would have been able to spend much more if anyone had bothered to stick around. Come on people, you didn't want Sundays, so the show organizers ended it on Saturday. Couldn't you stay on Saturday to give the public a chance to visit?
Best,
Sunnywood
As it happened, the only times I could get there were Thursday afternoon or Saturday afternoon. Thursday afternoon I paid the $100 early bird fee and went in at 2:00PM. Nobody had set up yet. Dealers and wholesalers were looking through each other's boxes of coins in the usual fashion, but there were very few display cases set up for open browsing. So I knew I would have to come back on Saturday.
Many retail dealers complain that the auctions are siphoning off all their business. Dealers all say that auctions shouldn't be everything. But what do they do about it? I'll tell you what they do: they don't take the bourse floor seriously. They all pack up and leave early.
The New York show wisely did NOT include Sunday hours, thus giving dealers time to get home. So what did the dealers do? Most of them left early Saturday. By the time I got there Saturday afternoon at 1:00 PM, checkbook in hand, ready to BUY COINS, most dealers were gone. This is part of the reason that the bourse floor is declining as an important retail venue. The more dealers do this, the fewer buyers will bother showing up. It is particularly annoying that Saturdays aren't taken more seriously. I understand why Sundays are bad, but guess what, some of us actually do have jobs during the week. It isn't always possible to leave work on a Thursday or Friday to get to a coin show. Saturday is the ideal time for most of us folks out in the real world.
I would like to extend my personal gratitude to the dealers who stayed the whole day on Saturday. Dedicated dealers like Julian Leidman and Bob Hughes (and others) stayed the course. To the rest who were nowhere to be seen Saturday afternoon, including all the big names, I thumb my nose and give you all a Bronx cheer. I happily conducted business with several dealers Saturday afternoon, but undoubtedly would have been able to spend much more if anyone had bothered to stick around. Come on people, you didn't want Sundays, so the show organizers ended it on Saturday. Couldn't you stay on Saturday to give the public a chance to visit?
Best,
Sunnywood
0
Comments
It's been a horrific auction and show schedule this year. But you've got a good point!
<< <i> I thumb my nose and give you all a Bronx cheer. >>
Perhaps in this market the dealers don't care. After all, they have the Internet. See what technology has done? I just wonder if this market changes, will there be a different attitude.
BTW, to all the dealers being soooo tired from all the auctions and shows.....
I bet Miss Legend would like to respond to this post!!!!! HEH
And yet it would be considered quite rude if she had the same attitude back at you as you just had for dealers. Amazing.
Nonetheless, I think that arrangements should have been made to be there longer on Saturday. I agree with Sunnywood that for many people that's the only day they can attend a show.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Wouldn't the solution be to limit the auctions to Saturday after 5:00 or Sunday.
An exceptional idea.
No kidding, and it is not a secret. Some dealers will tell you this if you ask. I think this is true for the larger, national shows more than the smaller, regional/local shows. When I go to a show, I go to look at coins, to sell coins, to visit with other collectors and dealers that I know, see exhibits, attend classes, view auction lots, but not to buy coins.
TDN, I totally understand the grueling schedule. If everyone wants to leave Saturday at noon, THEN MAKE THE BOURSE HOURS FINISH AT NOON. Whatever the advertised hours are, show up for them !! If you can't, don't exhibit !!!
Next the shows will advertise that they are done Saturday at noon, and the dealers will pack up and leave Friday night !!!
I made an extra trip into NYC, paid admission, and took up my Saturday afternoon - just to look at a bunch of empty tables.
I don't want to hear the dealers complaining that the auctions are siphoning off their business anymore. Maybe I should just go and buy directly at all the auctions like I used to. I built much greater sets that way when I represented MYSELF. Only problem is, it's hard to find the time these days. Let's face it, a huge chunk of dealer inventory comes from the auctions, mainly through professionals who buy up lots and then walk them around to all the dealers at these convenient wholesale bourses at which the lowly public is barely tolerated.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
The sponsors might as well make it a Friday only show.
TDN - 2 hour commute? I don't think so, unless it's the height of rush hour and there was a major accident. I live twice the distance and it took me about 90 minutes.
DHeath - great idea about the auctions!
Westcheter County Coin Club
1st EVER!
Coin Night....
thats right....just a few hours on a weeknight.....
Dealers....no table charge...
Collectors....no entry fee
just small fun bourse....
more details coming....but it will be held I believe 3rd Wed in October
Westchester County.....
I did not intend to imply that I did not want to buy coins. My behavior has evolved to adapt to the nature of coin shows in 2004. The coin show has become a trade show for the dealers where the public is practically shunned. The same dealers who will gladly sell you great products and give you superb service from their home base barely want to look at you when they are at the big show. I am going to the ANA next month. I will bring a few checks, a few coins to show around, a coin or two to sell, will visit with some friends, sit in on a lecture, view the exhibits and auction, but I really do not expect to buy anything. It's just the reality of coin shows in 2004.
Actually, as far as ANA goes, I found that at last year's show that dealers were more than happy to sell coins to me when I went on the first day.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
Sunnywood-you are right! I appologize for leaving a little early (I left at 11:30).
The problem for Legend was we were stretched too thin. We had to attend ALL of the auctions and have two people at the show. The same time, we had too much going on in the office (our biz does NOT stop when we go to a show). We had no more people to send in.
Due to all the recent travel in the past 30 days: Baltimore, Atlanta, Chicago, I simply ran out of gas Friday night at the auction. I still am dealing w/pnuemonia from Chicago. I practically fell asleep at the table today! Thats my pathetic excuse.
I do totally agree that if a show is scheduled to run until Sat afternoon, we should stay.
Its really the show promoters fault. They should be more mindful of what the dealers schedules are.
And no, not all the dealers go to shows to just trade dealer to dealer-thast a myth! Only the big wholesale companies do-and most of them don't deal with the public anyway.
Nope, I've had it - taht's it for major coin shows for me. All I can say dealers you guys are fools. ALl because I may look young we're buying and more than you can imagine. Your loss. I'm sticking to the few dealers that I have excellent rapport with and that's it for me. No need to get wound up Sunny, (Barry I know you were p----d too).
Laura was not in yet so I have nothing bad to say about her
Great being around those Jung coins though I admit shees
Marc
I have no problem selling decent coins to other dealers but it is a foregone conclusion that private individuals will not be buying coins from me. I've never quite understood that. But have no problem with selling to dealers at wholesale levels and being able to buy from them at similar levels if needed. I price my coins essentially at wholesale to collectors but what I usually get is just tire-kicking. It doesn't really matter who buys the coins as long as they sell when I want them too. It's easier to sell to dealers, plain and simple. They recognize exactly what they want and go for it. They either pass or play. I think many of the more sophisticated collectors behave as dealers any ways.
So my point? Why bother hanging around Sunday or even Saturday if 95% of the business is done by Friday? Sunnywood, you may an exception, and I'm sure quite selective at what you will buy. It's often easier just to peruse 800 auction lots to find the half dozen or so coins to hopefully buy. The bourse at a large show is becoming an antiquated notion imo.
roadrunner
You can't compare Parsippany to this show in terms of quslity high end stuff but I admit Westchester is the next best thing
Marc
So, what do we all do? I'm a big believer in the capitalist system, and letting natural market forces decide matters. Maybe the Internet is allowing the dealers to adopt a new method of doing business. Maybe there is simply too much activity. Maybe what we need is a system of positive incentives for bourse dealers and bourse collectors tocome together.
One thing I do know is that nothing will get worked out nicely if either or both side adopt an attitude of not caring for the concerns of the other side.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Quite frankly, I do like the idea of ending the shows around 3 pm on a Saturday. No later, This gives dealers a chance to catch flights home or have dinner with their families Saturday nights.
The Saturday shows would then be similar to Sunday only shows in which they end fairly early Sunday afternoons.
Back in the 1960's and 1970's I do not recall shows staring so early on Thursdays. I thought they beagn on Fridays (even then not that often). Most shows were weekend shows since most collectors and even many dealers had to work during the week. Please refresh my memory.
i wanted to buy coins,leave the house at 6 am for a 90 minute drive,get to the show and stand around till 9
waiting for the dealers to show,then try to haul arse over the bourse and look for my stuff before the dealers started packing up at 11 !
and this was on Saturdays.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I think the ANA should drop the hammer again on shows that they are involved in running. Many dealers cried when they socked that dealer
about a year ago with the fine for leaving early. Now they want to leave early when the shows end on Saturday? It's time to fine. I think
dealers forget that their products go to and come from collectors. There would be no dealer to dealer transactions if there weren't collectors
in the loop at some point.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I hear all these major deals going on for multiple million dollars all the time. One would think they could afford to hire a couple people to mind the store while away for shows. It won't happen IMO because to me the bottom line is they JUST DON"T WANT TO BE THERE
The sponsers blame the dealers ..
The dealers blame the sponsors, the public, hectic schedule, the full moon and anything and everything else ..
The "DEALERS" know going in the hours of the bourse floor ...
The "DEALERS" know how many auctions are going on during that specific weekend ..
The "PUBLIC" expects the dealers to be there during the bourse hours and days stated in the advertisements the sponsers pay good money to run to get the public there.
The poor dealers .. sniff, sniff ... If anyone has problems with the hours .. Don't Go ...
The poor dealers ... No vacation ... Bring your family .. I'm sure in a place like NY there are plenty they can do while your
busy ...
The poor dealers ... Want to be home Saturday night with their families ... get into a different proffession ..
The poor dealers ... Complain there isn't a lot of fresh new material out there ... How do they know. They are too busy
packing and leaving when it's the best time for the public to possible bring in their coins
The poor dealers ... Are spread too thin ... Again, Don't go. Just send someone for the auctions if you want
Sponsors set the hours that the dealers agree to ... So be there
Sponsers advetise to get the public to the bourse floor .. So be there
The sponsors should take note of who packs up and leaves early. The next event the sponsors put on they should refuse the dealers that left early. Should the sponsors want to sell the early departees space possibly they should charge 10 times the normal table fees for the offending dealers .. If the dealers don't want to pay the excessive fees, (It gives them one more thing to b**ch about) You don't need them anyway, they are just going to leave early anyway ...
09/07/2006
For most dealers, the NY show was far too small to justify three days of bourse time. Two days would have been plenty. If the show was instead held only on Friday and Saturday, most table holders would have stayed the duration.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Second, I am not bashing dealers. I don't agree with those of you who have no sympathy for the dealers' viewpoint. There are a few bad apples in every barrel (rude dealers and rude collectors alike), but most of us are well-intentioned. My worst-ever experience on the bourse floor was actually at the hands of a horribly rude fellow collector, not a dealer, who subsequently took it to these Boards in a vicious personal attack. That's why I didn't post here for a long time. I am into coins for personal enjoyment, not to be attacked and insulted by anyone, collector or dealer !!!
There are also different kinds of dealers, and a small local dealer who exhibits at a show will have a different way of interfacing with the public vs. a major national dealer. Similarly, a specialty house that handles one area of numismatics will have a different attitude from a large wholesaler that survives by trading everything. In walking the bourse floor, I am mindful of the different reasons why different companies are there, and I don't expect them all to take time to chit-chat with me.
MrEureka wrote:
Dealers leave shows early because the bourse slows down. Period. If the shows were shorter, the bourse would stay lively and more dealers would stay through the end. So the REAL reason most dealers leave shows early is that the shows are too long.
Andy, this WAS only a two-day bourse. The Thursday dealers' bourse didn't start until 2:00PM and was not handled in a manner consistent with retail trade (almost no display cases were set up). So there was only Friday and Saturday, that's all. And everyone bagged Saturday. I understand why, but here would be my suggestion: (1) only have the bourse for one or two days, but make everyone stick around; and (2) I think a solid 5-6 hours on Saturday is generally a good idea, because most of us who buy coins, even high-end certified coins, work during the week. If you want to pare it down to a ONE DAY bourse, make it Saturday !!! Or if it's going to be a one-day bourse on Friday, SAY SO UP FRONT so we don;t waste our time coming on Saturday to buy coins.
What ends up happening is that collectors have to get there the first day of the retail bourse. That's the only day all dealers are happy & available to the public. But unfortunately, that often ends up being a Thursday. Since the major shows are scattered about, it means taking 2-3 days off from work just to go to a show.
Part of my point here is that I still like coin shows !!! I love browsing through display cases. It is less pressured than going through dealer boxes at early bird, and more leisurely than viewing auction lots. It is part of my enjoyment of the hobby. I think it would be a shame to lose it. But no question, this is a seller's market, and large dealers are doing their business wholesale and via the auction block. When did Heritage or many others ever display their REAL inventory at a show ??
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
However, having sat behind Legend's table enough now, I can honestly say that they sell 99% of the coins they sell at a show to customers they know in advance are coming to the show. In fact, I manned the table for two straight days at Portland ANA and didn't sell a single coin. What dealer wants to stick around for that???
The retail portion of the coin show has slipped far back on the priority list for major dealers. Look at what happens at the bigger shows: There's auctions before the show and during the show. There's lobby leeching before the show and wholesale during the show. There's grading during the show and then wholesale when the coins come back. There's regular customers that come on dealer set up day and early in the show. And then for the most part there's only the general public that comes during the latter part of the show. Given the choice between getting back to the office and listing the newps and actually selling some of them [and/or having a day with the family] or sitting for two days and not selling a thing, I know which I'd make as a businessman.
Oh, btw, here's Legend's Market Report. See - no days off!
Market Report
Customers cn meet with the dealers at other places.
Dealers can deal with each other at other places.
It seems shows are not meant for the collectors anymore.
Why should a collector go, if the dealers aren't going to be there or aren't interested in selling to them?
When I want to buy an expensive coin(s), I sure as heck am not going to do it from a photo, it will be in person so I can examine it myself.
But apparently shows are a waste of time nowadays for collectors.
I might be in the minority, but I would prefer to buy a coin "from a photo" on approval (or with return privilige) in my own home taking a day or two to make the decison rather than at the coin show with poor lighting and the sense of more pressure to make a decision.
No arguments with any of your points from a dealer's perspective. But then just do away with weekends on the bourse floor, and make admission free. Anyway, the more I think about this, the more sense it makes to just go buy everything yourself at auctions. Or find another hobby. If I can't wander around a bourse floor looking at coins, I might as well go do something else. Perhaps it is another side effect of this market - it's becoming a real turn-off to be a collector.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Many of my best coins never saw the light of day. They went right from a collector to me via Legend. If I only bought at auction I wouldn't own them.
Many, many coins are available in nicer condition at a lower price on the bourse floor than what they sell for in auction.
And at most auctions you are going up against the crackout guys. The coins you really should own you will not buy [for the most part] because someone is seeing it a grade higher. The coins they pass on are not the ones you really want. That's a tough rock and a hard place to squeeze yourself into!
I will sometimes hold coins back and save them for collectors (coins which I could have sold easily during setup, to dealers). Many of these coins I end up bringing home because of low collector turnout.
Everyone says how great the internet is for the hobby and it is. I'm affraid the result is what you are witnessing at shows. A slow death!!
(of collector attendance)
What irritates me as a dealer is that many of the dealers that leave early are the big boys with the best table locations
Maybe dealers should be MADE to man their tables unti the end of the show. If they chose not to, then at the next show they get moved to the back of the room. Why should table location matter if you are there just for dealer to dealer business?
Why is it that dealers would rather sell to other dealers than to collectors when they get retail from collectors and wholesale from dealers? Do the quick, multiple sales at wholesale make it more worthwhile?
So my question is - why don't the organizers just plan for a show to end on Saturday?
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
From my experiences there is no such thing as wholesale. Coins that I sell are the same price no matter who is buying, dealer or collector.
I think most sellers will give quantity discounts. Obviously if you do business with someone regulary (buying and selling) you will give this regular customer a better deal than someone you have never done business with before.
I take great pleasure in showing things to people whether they buy or not. But acting out the role of Maytag repairman just for the heck of some tire kicking is not a good return on my time. The same goes to dealers I bring coins to. Some will buy consistently and others won't buy anything. The latter group get weeded out over time as it is a big waste for both of us. I can visit the same 4 to 6 dealers at major show and do all my selling in a few hours. I can sit at a table for 3 days and be lucky to sell 20% as much.... none of which is retail. I'm on both sides of the fence here too as I'm one of the pickiest buyers at a show. But if you show me a good coin at a good price, I'm going to buy it. We just may not always agree on what a good coin or good price is.
One does what works for them. I've made the effort for the retail side and it has not worked. I applaud those people that don't have that issue. My opinion is that the typical retail buyer feels much more comfortable buying from a B&M, Heritage, Legend, Whitlow, RCNH, DLRC, DVRC, DHRC, etc. because they feel they are getting tremendous expertise for their dollar, much the same way you would take your investment dollars to TRowe Price or Goldman Sachs. Like Sunnywood or TDN, I don't care if my next purchase is from Centles or Whitlow. If the coin is right, it gets sold.
roadrunner
I had to go to the Midwest show in Chicago on Sunday. It was my only option even though I knew the potential downfalls. Most of the dealers were gone, probably over half. But the dealers that were there got my business. I found at least 5 dealers that had coins I was looking for and/or were buying coins that I had to sell. It certainly could have been better, but I came away with some great contacts and great coins. Guess what dealers I will visit the next time I go to a show?
<< <i>So my question is - why don't the organizers just plan for a show to end on Saturday? >>
Because then the dealers will leave Friday, as a good portion of them did in NYC this weekend.
so if they're not set up on day 1 , and leave early on last day , why bother with tables . just rent an entire floor in the marriott , and have dealers visit the room next to them for half an hour , and rotate routinely until all have seen everyone
Most of my buying is done on the web now. At least at shows I can see coins (even if they aren't the ones I'm interested in) and meet some of the dealers.
Even if some dealers leave early, it doesn't really bother me. I make appointments when I really want to see someone. Usually they will tell me ahead of time when I need to be there by. Sometimes I can't make it until early Saturday.
This ANA Show, I'll be prepared. I plan on being there Wed. for PNG day. My wife says I need to get a life! Don't all of us here need to????
Mike