National Day 2

RG58

Just got back home about 2 hours ago- I spent all day at the I-X center. Although the general admission line had about 400 people on it before the gates opened at 10 am, it did not seem like the attendace was anything special. But thats Ok - better for the collector I guess.

I went through loads of Topps 1958 cards (trying to complete the set). Lots of raw ex-ex-mt range stuff. An occasional raw Nr-mt card could be found if you looked hard enough. Lots of major stars (mantle, clemente, maris, williams, mays, koufax etc) were slabbed but overpriced compared to Ebay. In fact everything was overpriced compared to Ebay. Considering it costs 7$ to park my car and 15$ admission, I guess the rationalization of saving on the shipping goes down the drain. However at least i didn't get the VIP pass- the free autographs weren't appealing and I'd rather have the extra 50$ to buy something.

I did buy 3 slabbed PSA 7 1958 topps commons for about 10-11$/card which is about the going ebay price. I made an offer for some PSA 8 slabbed commons but a stubborn dealer wanted about 60$/card and I knew I could get it on ebay for 30-40$/card so I passed.

I bought about 20 raw commons/minor stars as well in exmt-nrmt condition costing me about 3-6$/card depending on the dealer, which is overpriced but I think at least some of them will grade out "7", perhaps even 1 or 2 "8s" in the batch (I pray). Some of them are hard to find low-pop cards. This is what makes going to big shows exciting for me- finding the tough cards in the set in reasonable condition with good centering.

I tried talking down some prices on slabbed "8"s with some of the well-known dealers but they would not budge- perhaps over the weekend they will be more willing to bring down their prices.

Its very impressive to see the inventories of some of the dealers- 707 Sportscards display will make you think there is no such thing as a card rarity- they have stacks of the same star player PSA slabbed in high grade. I asked to look at a PSA 7-8 Pee Wee Reese and they took out about 8 cards for me to examine. Another dealer had about 20 different raw 1958 topps Billy Harrell #443- thats right "20" of them all ex-nrmt condition (I thought it was a short-print!). He also had about 20 Stan Musial A.S.- Perhaps an obsesive compulsive.

I'll be returning either Satuday or Sunday (expect the crowds to pick up on the weekend!)-- Plan to make some bigger purchases at that time if the price is right.

All in all, a very fun day! I'm looking forward to returning Sat or Sunday.

If I am boring you, sorry! Just thought those who couldn't make it would be interested in reading

Spahnfan

Thank you for your report on the National. I cannot make it, so reports such as yours are great for me. I like your observations. They give me a little a bit of a feel for what the dealers have, what their attitudes are and what they are willing to negotiate on. I would like to hear more after your next visit to the National.

Mantlefan

As a 50's collector, I appreciate your sharing your day with us. As you say, it seems with most shows anything from the 50's that's near-mint or better has been graded already and is usually over-priced. Hopefully you can find some graded bargains on Sunday when the dealers realize they have to lug those cases back home. If you should find a 1958 #289 Shantz/Burdette card either graded 7 or better or in top shape raw, LMK and maybe you can help me out.

WinPitcher

sounds like u had a fun day, good luck in your quest.

magellan

It's always good to hear another collector's experiences RG58 especially when we can't be at the National.
Thanks !

gaspipe26

Day 2 was about the same as day 1. Finally decided to shell out the $800 for a 1969 Cello pack and lo and behold TBBCC beat me to it. 1 hour later he had it in his case for $1000 so I passed.
Came across a stunning 1969 Ryan in 9 over at Goodwin's. He offered it to me at a very good price. The card was dead on 50-50 without as much as a fuzz on any corner. If the card was in a 10 holder noone could complain. So now I have 2 in 9.
Just an observation but it seems as if most of the big sales were dealer to dealer. After talking with some other collectors, the consensus was, "not a whole lot out there".

mudflap02

I'll trade you a 1984 Fleer Ryan PSA 10 AND a 1988 Fleer PSA 10 Ryan straight up for the '69. Thinks about it - 2 10's for one 9 - what a great deal! 10's are a much better investment by the way.

Basilone

Yesterday I had bought a decent amount of PSA 8 Mid 1960s commons in a bulk deal. I brought them back today to flip and sold them literally when I stepped in the door to the IX to King Kellogg. We made a deal right there for them in the lobby!

I didnt by any cards today but Im thinking about a PSA 8 1941 Playball common from AJ. The Skerbes wanted $600 each for the $300 SMR commons.

Truth be told..all the eye candy was very high priced...for example, I know that the stuff the some dealers have will be on eBay in the next couple of weeks so why pay those high prices now.


Besides cards..I met Davemri at the show and had sat with him for a bit chatting. I saw Griffins at the ballgame and got to meet his lovely wife and the heir to his cards...Griffin himself (Anthonys son)!

Jay Wolt and I made a last minute decision to check out the game and got some nice seats above homeplate in the first couple rows of the upper deck.

I also met Wayne today which was a real treat since we've known each other online for several years from the ol' 1965 days.

Im thinking about buying a vintage wax pax to open at the luncheon tomorrow for the fun of it.....but Im haven't picked anything up yet.

carkim

Seeing how the 1972 Topps Football that I need are nowhere to be found, I started looking for some items on the list that others have provided. I found a couple of items but those who provided me their wantlist, but they seem to be in the same boat as me.

I went to the White Sox v. Indians game tonight with:

King Kellogg
Gemmint
DaveMRI
RustyWilly
Late70'sTopps
Griffins and his famliy
Putty
GoSoxBoSox
AllMartysStuff
BuckWheat
and Tipem

GREAT GROUP OF GUYS!!!

The Indians treated The King's Kourt to a special message during the 4th inning of the game (That was pretty cool)

The World Series of Grading kicked of with the KING as the first contestant this morning at 10:00AM (He graded all the cards PSA 10)

I got baseballs autographed at the show by:

Jim Bibby
Rick Manning
Len Barker (Perfect Game)
Jerry Grote (1969 World Series)

Grote also handed out a business card with each autograph promoting his web site www.jerrygrote.com

MORE TOMORROW

Carlos

Griffins

Spent another day walking the show. I'd agree with Gaspipe- most of the big sales were dealer to dealer, or in some cases dealer to auction house. Saw a Polo Grounds set that I passed on at 8am on setup day, came back 15 minutes later and it was gone. If you snooze, you lose. I was told to see it in a catalog auction in the fall.
Found very little interesting by the time the doors opened at 5pm for the sneak preview- if you are serious you really have to be in early.
The attendance was pretty light today, the first full day of general admission. Many, many people I talked to commented on the fact that most things could be had on ebay, easier, and less expensive. For me, it was more a time to put names with faces, and set up possible connections for the future. If you come looking for modern graded stars (post WW2) expect to pay 2-3x what they would go for on ebay every day of the week, and twice on tuesday. There is much more overhead, and many people admitted to jacking up prices at the beginning of the show.
I was also really impressed by the high numbers of graded 60's and 70's cards. Several dealers had boxes and boxes of 8's from '68 on for $5 each- and I stood next to friends that got stuff like '72 Brocks and Seavers for 5 bucks in PSA 8. There are also guys selling graded commons for SMR when SMR is way over what they are going for these days.
Levi does have an incredibly impressive inventory- surpassed only by the friendliness of his family. He showed me a stack of '58 Herrer errors- other than the one I have I've never seen one offered before. He had about a dozen '52 Topps Mantles, and then pulled a T206 Plank out of his shirt pocket. I figured he had a Wagner stashed in his wallet but he denied it.
There was also a lot of talk about the darker side of the hobby, and that was truly discouraging, but increasingly prevalent. This is not the time, and certainly not the place to go into it, but if foreshadows a lot of things to be aware of.
The internet has made it a lot easier to put together a great collection- but at a human price. In my opinion shows like this enable all of us to meet and put names with faces, and that is what is all about. The best part was walking home from the Indians game tonite (about 20 of us attended together) and my wife commenting on what a great bunch of guys we were with.

ejguru

Basil--

If you find a '67--DO IT!!

Had to pass on this year's Nat'l with work/personal concerns. Good luck finding a vintage pack. Shane (1954) can give you a hand slicing it open. Ah, memories...

Basilone

If anybody at the National knows of a dealer with decent prices on 70's or late 60's wax pack or cello to bust at the luncheon..let me know asap (and a table #).

Is $40.00 too much to pay for a non graded 1974 Topps wax pack?

Basilone

I should also add..that a couple of people I know (no names please) were pretty pi$$ed to find out that card slabbed by company XXX was deemed altered by PSA.

Crap like that can really put a damper on a show for the average collector.

I really hate hearing stuff like that.

HartlandMan

I had a blast today...had my McGwire gamer authenticated, met with Whitey Ford who took my business card, had Ralph Kiner sign a ball for me, and busted some upper deck at that counter where they gave away special cards, withg a chance to get a 1 of 100 LeBron James, which I luckily did, and met the guys I've only read until now...and then RobE and I kicked around together afterwards and had a good ol' time.

I don't presume to include myself with this elite group, but here's The Kings Kourt...(fuzzy pic)



Didn't take photo's today because I just plumb forgot, but here's one of me n' Whitey...

Basilone

Shocker to see the King with a Coors Light cup in his hand. Wish I could of been there for the photo shoot. I will be at the luncheon tomorrow.

Lothar52

ford is still a stud

Machodoc

Did anyone take a ride on the indoor Ferris Wheel?

Personally I find this show a little easier to manage than last year at AC, since here in the wide-open mid west parking is a little easier to find (Imagine acre upon acre of parking dictated only by one's tolerance for walking!).

Things seemed a little slow today but I heard more than one dealer tell another that Friday will (as it usually does) tell them if it will be a good show overall.

While overall graded vintage seems harder to find, of what's available GAI is more prevalent, as seems to be buyer's disinterest in GAI graded cards (based on overheard comments from more than a few dealers).

There seems to be more and more dealer space dedicated to selling miscellaneous graded 1960's and 1970's discards, mostly 7's and below, as they just want to move the stuff. I couldn't give away PSA 8 NQ 1972 commons for anything over $5 and ended up selling about 50 (plus stars) to a private individual who watched me try and sell them to a dealer).

To expand that theme, there just seems to be a lot of "excess" graded cards that dealers just want to get rid of.

As opposed to last year in AC, the IX Center is in an industrial area border on the west by Hopkins airport and thus the space seems bigger.

The food courts are much better, as are the beer outlets, although you have to trek downstairs to go get rid of the beer when it's done with you.

There seems to be more "toy" dealers this year, people selling the chintzy stuff generally found at smaller shows. Good memorabelia seems also more scarce this year.

I made my first pilgrimage to Norty's table this year and got there before the 1959's had been ravaged. I prepared about 25 of my selections for submittal tomorrow.

I got to meet several board members, and there was a crowd around Norty's table as they gathered for the Indians game (a 3-0 loss the the Chisox).

Personally pleasing pickups included an original seat from the old Yankee's stadium, the 1959's from Norty, some good 1973's from Kyle, and a 1952 graded deal in progress with Levi. I will also await the results of the 275-odd 1933 Goudeys and 1952 Topps I submitted today.

As Scarlett said, "tomorrow's another day"...

SW

pc

<< <i>

If I am boring you, sorry! Just thought those who couldn't make it would be interested in reading >>



thank you,really.
i cannot attend.
nice recap.

ctsoxfan

Thanks for all the reports, there are many of us who could not attend who are curious how this years compares to past Nationals...I could have bet that the Ebay comparisons are running rampant, and will probably keep sales in check until Sunday's inevitable bargains begin.

TheCARDKid

What kind of vintage wax is there? Say pre 1960, any sport.

With wax coming out of the woodwork recently (Mastro), I wouldn't be suprised of anything. 1948 Leaf cases? Goudey packs with Ruth showing through the wrapper

Griffins

I saw a '52 Bowman pack, a few '52-54 packs, and a handful of '55-59 packs. '60 and later were available in a few places. Also, 1 dealer had a few '33 Sport Kings packs. If you need to ask, you can't afford them.....

No '49 Leafs. I saw a post war run of packs at Hollywood park a few months ago, the seller asking for 200K. It included a '48 Leaf SP pack. The latest mastro has a run that looks a lot like that group, so if that is the case I assume the Leaf pack got sold off. I would imagine it was from Rosen's Florida "find" and since he only pulled one Paige from the ones he opened this particular pack (which I was told was the only one upopened) would have a pretty decent chance of being a winner.

TheCARDKid

33 Sport King penny packs? It's been awhile since I've seen anything pre '48.

Was there much buzz about the most famous unopened box in the history of the hobby (the '52 Topps mid/high series Mastro/Lelands box)?

Griffins

Nothing that I heard. But I"m sure there are others much more dialed in.
Sports Kings packs were pretty cool- first vintage packs I've ever seen. What kind of kid would leave them unopened?

marz

<< <i>Nothing that I heard. But I"m sure there are others much more dialed in.
Sports Kings packs were pretty cool- first vintage packs I've ever seen. What kind of kid would leave them unopened? >>




Anthony, give me a call during the day bro~

gaspipe26

BBcardexchange has 2 SportKings packs that are graded. There is 78 and 79 rack and vending cases. BBcardexchange also has 1967 cellos. It just seemed to me that the unopened was very very expensive.

Basilone

<< <i>Was there much buzz about the most famous unopened box in the history of the hobby (the '52 Topps mid/high series Mastro/Lelands box)? >>



Not really but Im plan to stop over at Lelands and ask why they were not sold again in GAI holders.

Cubfan

Can anyone add the names to the picture of the guys at the convention? I recognize a couple but dont know them all.

Thanks.

Basilone

Top Row Standing (Left to Right): RobE, King Kelogg, Buckwheat, Frank Smith, Tipem, RustyWilly, Carlos Aponte, Gemint, Hartland Man

Botton Row (Left to Right): Norty, GoSoxBoSox, DaveMRI, Putty

Cubfan

Thanks a million John!!!





Keith

Chew

<< <i>Day 2 was about the same as day 1. Finally decided to shell out the $800 for a 1969 Cello pack and lo and behold TBBCC beat me to it. 1 hour later he had it in his case for $1000 so I passed.
Came across a stunning 1969 Ryan in 9 over at Goodwin's. He offered it to me at a very good price. The card was dead on 50-50 without as much as a fuzz on any corner. If the card was in a 10 holder noone could complain. So now I have 2 in 9.
Just an observation but it seems as if most of the big sales were dealer to dealer. After talking with some other collectors, the consensus was, "not a whole lot out there". >>




Gaspipe, I was by Piedmont Cards table and he had a very nice display of wax and cellos. Im pretty sure he had two 1969 6th series cello packs for sale. I don't know what the prices
were.

H. Walker

67standup

As others have stated, it's great to receive these updates. Especially as it's quite on the boards and dry on Ebay.

Buccaneer

Thank you for these updates. It has been 20 years since I've been to a National but I might attend next year.

I have a question. While high grade cards are not a bargain at the show, can one then get better deals on PSA 7s for late 50s/early 60s? I was intrigued by the graded lots that someone picked up but I am wondering how far does that extend?

RG58

The two dealers I found who had 1958 PSA 7 commons in their display basically threw the cards at me once I inquired into them. They made be a deal within microseconds and sold them to me at comparable ebay price (10-11$/common). There was another dealer who has some PSA 6's and offered them to me immediately at 7$ a pop but I felt that this was actually a little overpriced. (ebay runs about 3-6$/card +shipping) If they were really nicely centered I would have considered buying a few but they weren't and I try to buy PSA 7 or better for my collection

Anything with a "PSA 8" I could not get a deal on (stars or commons)- My general rule is a "high for the grade, centered PSA 7" in 1950s vintage is the best deal out there!

Its funny... when all the big dealers are selling at the same time, connections are easy to be seen. What i mean is you can see that many cards we have all commented on in recent auctions and discussed on these meassage boards are now in the displays of various dealers. The dealers then try to mark up the price even more than the outrageous prices they paid at auction- I can't believe this makes for good business practice? My personal feeling is that good auctions like ebay, maestro, superior, goodwin, set the market price that a collector would be willing to pay for an item- but if a dealer is the one winning the item, then what collector in the market is willing to pay an even higher price?

here is an example- I was the table of Champs and Bums, a reputable dealer with like a million dollar inventory in PSA cards- I did not see anyone buying there stuff, nor even many people interested. How long does it take them to turnover there entire million dollar inventory at a 30-40% markup/card- 5 years, 8 years, 10 years+?

I'm beginning to think the dealers are supporting the prices of high grade cards, not the actually consumer/collector. It makes me predict that at some time in the next few years, the prices of high grade cards will come down when the inventories of the dealers expand too much and cash becomes needed by the dealers. I did not see many high priced PSA 8-10 cards (vintage) being sold on Thursday. All the action seemed to be at the smaller dealers with raw stuff.

I'll be back tomorrow for another look around - perhaps the weekend will bring more big money to the National.

Virtualizard

<< <i>...I was the table of Champs and Bums, a reputable dealer with like a million dollar inventory in PSA cards- I did not see anyone buying there stuff, nor even many people interested.

... It makes me predict that at some time in the next few years, the prices of high grade cards will come down when the inventories of the dealers expand too much and cash becomes needed by the dealers. >>






Rob,

I completely agree. Champs and Bums has been good to me in the past, but their prices are outrageous. I keep inquiring about some cards he has, but Peter refuses to lower his insane prices. Eventually, he has to give in. Out of principle, I won't do it first!


JEB.

PennState82

Thanks for the updates... Has anyone seen any high grade older
Football cards? Thanks, Dave

SKINSFAN

rumor has it there is no high grade football left some Nitney lions fan has it all

onegaucho

Just gotta say that all these pictures and comments about the National *almost* make up for not making it there in person... Great stuff guys. Keep it comin!!!

RobE

My God you could get lost in there.It's like stepping right into your computer and walking through every
available auction house for a sports collector.

Not to mention passing by people who you've run into from the CU boards.Nice.Very nice.Certainly a pleasure to witness King Kellogg reference beer credits instead of just "hearing" about it.

He wouldn't happen to be the King of something else like beers too,maybe?

Now,as good and as fun as it is out here,it was awful to run into everyone and hear the news that something happened to Rob when the day before we were talking about everything from soup to nuts with he and his Pop.On the bright side it appears he'll be ok.Goes to show you life is too short to sweat the small stuff.


As for raw material there is the usual so/so and things you never thought you'd ever see outside holders.Setbuilders is a very good example of this.

The Registry Lunch was a nice set up.Bj was the host of the event.Marshall spoke from the heart,Joe answered some tough but very good questions.Glad to have been able too sit in and just listen to the representatives from the company and about 150 loyal supporters of the hobby and PSA interact.In other words...It was all a great experience.For me,a Learning experience on the hobby standpoint.

Scumbi

John,

Thanks for the picture. That is an awesome group of guys gathered together in one photo. At first, I thought it was the 35th Reunion of the Allegheny High State Champion Wrestling Team. Upon closer inspection, I realized they looked more like the Justice League of America after a two week P.F. Changs free buffet. Finally, I settled on the stand-ins for the cast of The Sopranos.

We blow those Star Trek geeks out of the Krelbonian Galaxy when it comes to good looks. I'm sure the convention center made more on beer sales than Bill Gates did on Microsoft stock. I'm thinking of going next year if they add a beauty pageant. I'm a lock for first place.

Seriously, nice to see a bunch of guys from all over the map have forged close ties built on ancient pieces of cardboard. The picture is the real reason this is a great hobby. Have a great show, guys. I look forward to hearing from you all on the boards once you're back home.

Best,

S.

Basilone

RobE- Thanks for the beer...I owe you one today if I see you.

Scumbi - To top off my night last night...after dropping Wayne off at the Sheraton I ran into former child actor Scotty Schwartz at the hotel. I had to use the restroom and he was in the next stall telling me about his audition for the movie KIDCO. I, of course, asked him if anyone asked him to sign one of his adult video boxes..he said not yet.

Check out a rerun of the E! True Hollywood Story about him for that guys history. The guy was no taller than 5' 2"

67standup

The camaraderie that the National – and CU boards – seems to have brought is great. I'm definitely going next year!

Wayne8348

John, Thanks again for the ride back to the hotel!


The show was awesome. I liked the facility much better than last years and on a personal note I managed to find several cards that I needed. There were several things of interest.

- GAI had a much larger presence this year at the show. One of the dealers said that he was doing well selling GAI cards for star players but nothing sells in GAI holders in regards to the commons.

- SGC had a large area set up for grading and it looked like a ghost town. I got a T201 graded by SGC and I was the only person there outside of 1 person who came out of the grading area a couple of minutes after I got there. They had a decent presence in prewar but very little presence in 50's and 60's cards.

- PSA once again put on an incredible luncheon. Marshall Fogel is an incredible speaker and I felt everything he said was not only uplifting and positive, but true. I think that Joe was nervous about the question and answer session but all of the questions were very good questions and Joe handled all of the well except one. He stumbled around and dodged King Kellogg's question about beer credits once again this year.

- Prices were high but there were bargains to be found. Paul from Starx cards is one of my favorite dealers to buy from and he made a very interesting point. He said that he sells his premium cards and shows and ebays the rest. The national is a very good opportunity to pick up very nice cards and having the ability to fully inspect them in person has some value. I'm not disappointed in any of my purchases unlike on ebay there are many times I receive cards that didn't meet my expectations.

- Fridays dinner was attended by about 16 people and was absolutely fantastic. It's great to see others so passionate about their cards and the industry.


This was my third national and I"m looking forward to next years in Chicago. I really enjoyed meeting a lot of new folks this year. That is what really makes the national such a special show.


Wayne

gregm13

Carkim

Nice 72 FB set - wow. I just bought several 72's from one of my secret contacts and received several 9's from the lot. That's my third favorite set - behind the 59 set that I'm actively collecting and the 69 set that I'm dabbling in.

Regards,

Greg M.

gregm13

Is next year's show really in Chicago? If so - that is wonderful since I live w/i 30 miles of downtown. It would be great to attend the PSA luncheon and meet some fellow PSA "enthusiasts" and give a PSA rookies a few pointers

Maybe we could set up a Cubs or Sox game....and sample some of the beer that Chicago is famous for.

Regards,

Greg M.

Cubfan

I didnt realize that next year's National was in Chicago either. It seems like it was just here.

BTW - When is the grading contest being held?

Griffins

Chicago next year, Anaheim the year after.
The grading contest was ongoing thru the show, I think the winner gets announced tomorrow. My $$$ goes on King Kellogg.

Wayne8348

Wasn't King Kellogg the one who graded the altered card a psa 6?


Wayne

Griffins

Yes, but he rationalized that it was from a presentation set and therefore OK.
Hey, it's an excuse that has worked before.

SDSportsFan

Thanks for all the updates guys


Steve