Where are the T206 Wagners?

BugOnTheRug · July 20, 2004 9:04AM

Anybody know how many Wagners are listed in the T206 Set Registry?

Please don't hammer me on this, as I know little about the T206 issue, but in reviewing several of the registry sets I have found no Wagners. I figured the longtime guru's of this set would have acquired maybe a psa 1 or 2, but nothing. Yes, I know these are extemely rare and expensive bla-bla-bla but I just figured I'd find at least one.............

I'll try and guess why and please correct accordingly: Could it be......

1) that the majority of these are in collections of the ungraded ranks?
2) that for privacy issues they aren't listed, but are in their posession?
3) that they are so rare and desirable that even the biggest players must wait their turn?
4) that the coinage to acquire these are out of reach even for the biggest players? (which would suprise me somewhat - related to #3)
5) that they are included in other registries such as Player, HOF, etc.?

If I remember correctly there are about 50 to 60 known examples (?) of this card. Just seems to me that they are around, but I haven't looked in the right place.

Thanks in advance and please keep the hammering to a minimum.

BOTR

interchanges · July 20, 2004 9:41AM

I will dispense what little wisdom I have from the Wilson Franks set into this one.
In the last year or two several high grade examples have been sold, but none get listed into registry sets.

Other than a few of the high rollers that we know of, there is obviously loads of other set builders that don't register their sets. I think maybe the Wagner is also picked up by rich cats that don't feel like building the whole set, they just want that single epic card.

It does seem like there would be ONE person that would have one in a registered set though.
I would chalk it up to pure coincidence.

mikeschmidt · July 20, 2004 10:15AM

First of all - Brian Seigel does have his PSA 8 Wagner listed in the Registry - but I think it is in the T-206 HOF Registry - under the name Honus and Friends.

What else do we know:

Mastro owns the PSA 5

Former Pacific CEO owns the PSA 4

There is a VG/EX example in the HOF

We do not know if Don Louchios has one in his T-206 set, because it is hidden. Needless to say, he is sufficiently rich that if he wants one - he owns one.

Finally - for many this is a "destination" card - so there would be no need for a Registry, even if they participated, right? I imagine that many of the Wagner owners are not necessarily T-206 set collectors. Like the 52 Mantle, the Goudey Gehrig and Ruths - the card in and of itself is important, and its "part of a set" is really secondary - especially since the Wagner card has never been sold in a set. (most sets are sold without the Big 3 or Big 4 - and even if there was a Wagner, it would be a separate lot).

Also remember that there are only about 24 graded Wagner cards. With estimates on the total Wagner population in the 50 - 100 range, that means that 50 - 75% of all Wagner T-206 cards are not even graded. Even when a PSA 1 can sometimes command six figures. Many of the Wagner owners shun the spotlight - and have likely owned their Wagner cards for a long time. The grading aspect is only valuable in the context of selling the card. Since so many seem to not be publicly sold - I'm sure the owners are comfortable with their ungraded raw Wagners sitting in their safety deposit vaults.

goodriddance189 · July 20, 2004 10:22AM

Mike Cramer (ex head honcho at Pacific cards) owns one. i could probably name at least a dozen others who own one in their private collections.

i'm sure there are at least 25-30 more, owned by folks who don't want to let the world know (for obvious security and privacy concerns).

aro13 · July 20, 2004 11:15AM

As MS said the Wagner is under the T206 White Borders Hall of Fame set and is listed under Honus and Friends. What an amazing set! The only card he is missing is the Plank in an 8. I checked the pop report and there is a Plank in PSA 8. Any idea on who owns that card, and any guesses on what it would sell for in a Mastro auction?

Vargha · July 20, 2004 11:17AM

Where are all of the 1933 Goudey Lajoie's (along the same line). They are conspicuously absent from some notable sets at the top of the Registry.

Virtualizard · July 20, 2004 11:19AM

Sorry guys, I've been hoarding all of the Wagners and Lajoies! I'll throw a few on ebay next week!

JEB.

Vargha · July 20, 2004 11:26AM

I knew it.

mudflap02 · July 20, 2004 11:29AM

JEB-

I've got a couple too. I actually had about 10 of each at one time, but traded a Wagner straight up for a brand spankin new case of 1988 Score, and a couple Lajoies for a stack of Dwight Gooden rookies.

SDSportsFan · July 20, 2004 11:39AM

I used to actually own a T206 Wagner, but sold it around 1991.

For probably around $10 or so

Oh, did I forget to mention it was Heinie Wagner?

Steve

helionaut · July 20, 2004 12:20PM

They're probably waiting for it to be reweighted more than 10 points. Shouldn't it be about 200 or something?

mikeschmidt · July 20, 2004 12:56PM

<< As MS said the Wagner is under the T206 White Borders Hall of Fame set and is listed under Honus and Friends. What an amazing set! The only card he is missing is the Plank in an 8. I checked the pop report and there is a Plank in PSA 8. Any idea on who owns that card, and any guesses on what it would sell for in a Mastro auction? >>

Tom Candiotti owns the PSA 8. Brian has discussed his HOF set at length before. He has no interest in upgrading his 8s to 9s - and the 9s he owns currently are cards that he got graded himself (e.g. bought many moons ago raw - and were subsequently graded PSA 9). Also - it appears as if Brian is not interested in adding a lesser grade Plank to complete his HOF T-206 set. The PSA 7 Plank has sold publicly in the past few years. I believe that he focuses his collection more on pre-war memorabilia these days. Last year at the National, he had an impressive array of bats on display - and was completely accessible to discussing them, too.

~ms

Chew · July 20, 2004 3:03PM

<< First of all - Brian Seigel does have his PSA 8 Wagner listed in the Registry - but I think it is in the T-206 HOF Registry - under the name Honus and Friends.

What else do we know:

Mastro owns the PSA 5

Former Pacific CEO owns the PSA 4

There is a VG/EX example in the HOF

We do not know if Don Louchios has one in his T-206 set, because it is hidden. Needless to say, he is sufficiently rich that if he wants one - he owns one.

Finally - for many this is a "destination" card - so there would be no need for a Registry, even if they participated, right? I imagine that many of the Wagner owners are not necessarily T-206 set collectors. Like the 52 Mantle, the Goudey Gehrig and Ruths - the card in and of itself is important, and its "part of a set" is really secondary - especially since the Wagner card has never been sold in a set. (most sets are sold without the Big 3 or Big 4 - and even if there was a Wagner, it would be a separate lot).

Also remember that there are only about 24 graded Wagner cards. With estimates on the total Wagner population in the 50 - 100 range, that means that 50 - 75% of all Wagner T-206 cards are not even graded. Even when a PSA 1 can sometimes command six figures. Many of the Wagner owners shun the spotlight - and have likely owned their Wagner cards for a long time. The grading aspect is only valuable in the context of selling the card. Since so many seem to not be publicly sold - I'm sure the owners are comfortable with their ungraded raw Wagners sitting in their safety deposit vaults. >>

Mastro sold his.

H. Walker

mikeschmidt · July 20, 2004 9:31PM

Harry:

Thanks for the update - I had supposedly had that information re-confirmed within the last 6-9 months. Was that a recent sale?

jrdolan · July 20, 2004 11:30PM

I heard that Upper Deck has one. They're going to cut it in half, mate them with halves of ARod and Pujols jersey cards, and call them "Honus Bonus 1/1 No. 1" and "Honus Bonus 1/1 No. 2." Valley Auction will sell them both on eBay for $500,000 two weeks apart.

DCDSports · July 21, 2004 1:55AM

We've got a PSA 2 Wagner that we picked up a few years back for about 80k. Along the with Plank and Magie, we've got a Cobb with a Cobb back, but the rest of our T206 set is ungraded.

JonB · July 21, 2004 5:01AM

jrdolan: as sad as that would be, it wouldn't surpize me one bit. and when they do destroy the best card in the hobby, without a doubt, there is only 1 seller that will end up with all 5 of the "1/1's" (and we all know who it is)

CW · July 21, 2004 6:41AM

Doesn't Larry Fritsch own one or two? I don't think
they're graded, though.

goodriddance189 · July 21, 2004 8:13AM

<< We've got a PSA 2 Wagner that we picked up a few years back for about 80k. Along the with Plank and Magie, we've got a Cobb with a Cobb back, but the rest of our T206 set is ungraded. >>

who are you? i'm not trying to be rude or anything, i've just never seen your name before

speeder · July 21, 2004 8:27AM

well informed sources told me that there are 11 "known" t206 wagner cards.

your friend, lee

DCDSports · July 21, 2004 11:48AM

Not rude at all. Quite understandable. My name is Douglas, and I am new to the board. However, I have recently added many of my sets to the Set Registry. You can find them listed as "The Dreier Collection." Super Bowl Tickets, C-46, N-29, N-2 . . . we have a lot of PSAs, just haven't registered any till now. My father and I have an extensive collection out here in California, and are currently working on opening a private museum, housed in an 18,000 square foot building.

We've been laying very low, keeping under the radar, and are only recently beginning to venture out into the light.

Hope this helps.

I'm really enjoying the boards, here. I've learned a lot more PSA and related ideas than I ever thought possible. Let me know if there's anything else I can offer.

Doug

Virtualizard · July 21, 2004 12:03PM

<< ...I'm really enjoying the boards, here. I've learned a lot more PSA and related ideas than I ever thought possible. Let me know if there's anything else I can offer.

Doug >>

Doug,

How about a scan of that Wagner card?

JEB.

mikeschmidt · July 21, 2004 12:50PM

Here's the PSA 4

mikeschmidt · July 21, 2004 12:50PM

pc · July 21, 2004 12:51PM

i crossed all the 33 goudeys into gai holders...

DCDSports · July 21, 2004 1:17PM

I'll post a scan or two tomorrow when I'm in the office.

Griffins · July 21, 2004 1:37PM

Mastro's case at the national today had 8 Wagners on display-1 graded Auth, 1 graded by GAI, and 6 others. Brian Siegals was not among them.

mikeschmidt · July 21, 2004 9:48PM

<< Mastro's case at the national today had 8 Wagners on display-1 graded Auth, 1 graded by GAI, and 6 others. Brian Siegals was not among them. >>

Anthony:

Well - that's just a little over the top, now isn't it? Brian's is usually on display at PSA's booth. Any clue as to the provenance of those eight Wagners? Who owns them, etc?

Also - it seems like Bill Mastro is still at the helm over there. I guess what I heard in the past about Doug Allen buying him out was maybe just rumours.

~ms

Griffins · July 21, 2004 10:20PM

MS- unfounded rumours, apparently. I know Bill Mastro was buying some items yesterday outright to list in the auction after this one. Perhaps he's just taken a step back.

jrdolan · July 21, 2004 10:38PM

<< Mastro's case at the national today had 8 Wagners on display-1 graded Auth, 1 graded by GAI, and 6 others. Brian Siegals was not among them. >>

Mastro represents 6 Wagner owners who have an intense philosophical aversion to authentication?

mikeschmidt · July 21, 2004 10:50PM

<< 

<< Mastro's case at the national today had 8 Wagners on display-1 graded Auth, 1 graded by GAI, and 6 others. Brian Siegals was not among them. >>

Mastro represents 6 Wagner owners who have an intense philosophical aversion to authentication? >>

jrdolan: As I've said elsewhere and before - between 50 and 75% of the known Wagner cards are not encapsulated by PSA/SGC/GAI. That alone does not mean that the cards are not authenticated by the hobby's best experts. Many of the owners of such cards were in the hobby long before people cared about PSA (and most before it even existed...), and, as they are not sellers of their Wagners - there is no prudent need to get further authentication as due dilligence was presumably performed at length when the card was purchased.

jrdolan · July 21, 2004 11:59PM

<< jrdolan: As I've said elsewhere and before - between 50 and 75% of the known Wagner cards are not encapsulated by PSA/SGC/GAI. That alone does not mean that the cards are not authenticated by the hobby's best experts. Many of the owners of such cards were in the hobby long before people cared about PSA (and most before it even existed...), and, as they are not sellers of their Wagners - there is no prudent need to get further authentication as due dilligence was presumably performed at length when the card was purchased. >>

I understand that the owners have satisfied themselves as to the cards' authenticity. I guess I meant that if I was showing off my Wagner to the world, I would want not want the world to wonder if it is genuine. Even if I acquired it prior to the existence of PSA.

mikeschmidt · July 22, 2004 12:15AM

<< 
I understand that the owners have satisfied themselves as to the cards' authenticity. I guess I meant that if I was showing off my Wagner to the world, I would want not want the world to wonder if it is genuine. Even if I acquired it prior to the existence of PSA. >>

Fair enough - but at the end of the day - they're just showing off, right? Think what you will about Mastro - but those cards sitting in his display cases will ease the concerns of any looking at the cards. Plus - with eight of them there - your Wagner is just another one sitting in a display case, right?

Wish I were so lucky.

dstudeba · July 22, 2004 12:19AM

I presume the owners of the Wagners aren't getting anything from the viewing public for showing their Wagner. Therefore they are doing the public a favor by allowing their card to be viewed. After being that generous with their card, why should they go to the extra effort of proving to some viewer the card is authentic according to the viewer's metrics? If I had a Wagner that I had authenticated to my satisfaction, I could give a Rat's A$$ what random viewers at the convention thought. Also there are nicer ways to display cards than in a PSA holder.

jrdolan · July 22, 2004 2:01AM

<< Also there are nicer ways to display cards than in a PSA holder. >>

I agree. PSA could offer very special holders for very special cards. I always thought it a shame that Fogel's 52T Mantle PSA 10 was in a regular PSA holder with that old-style flip that looks like it was done on somebody's old Corona typewriter.

But then, if I had Marshall Fogel's collection, I probably wouldn't care what typeface was on the flips.

DCDSports · July 22, 2004 2:56AM

Here are some scans of the Honus Wagner and the Ty Cobb (Cobb Back). If I can, I'll scan some of the other high-end cards.

Here's the Wagner. I cropped the imagine so the file would be smaller, plus added the words "Property of DCDSports" so no one could copy it. The PSA Cert. number is: 07045750

I'm trying. I don't know if I'm getting the picture to upload. Any help?

DCDSports · July 22, 2004 2:57AM

Sorry. Here's the Wagner

DCDSports · July 22, 2004 3:03AM

Here's the Cobb card. Sorry it took so much confusion.

ID Number: 03143939.

The Wagner, by the way, has a Sweet Caporal back.

mikeschmidt · July 22, 2004 3:10AM

Thanks for the scans - would love to have either of those cards in my collection - ever. Great stuff!

goodriddance189 · July 22, 2004 3:22AM

Doug, welcome to the boards

and a damn nice Wagner you got there.

DCDSports · July 22, 2004 3:26AM

I really appreciate it. If I ever get the chance (because it'll take a TON of resizing), I'll post some pictures of the museum. We have some impressive stuff. Super Bowl Trophy and Rings, World Series trophy and rings, GU jersey of Ted Williams, Hank Aaron, and Stan Musial, along with GU bats of same guys. More GU jerseys of Chamberlain, Kareem, Walter Payton, and the jersey DIckerson wore when he broke the single-season rushing record. Also, we have TWO 1894 Mayo Anonymous cards (one graded). I have the best job in the world. I manage all this.

NickM · July 22, 2004 3:26AM

Also, would you really want as a collector to see the cornerstone of your collection placed in a holder that says it's PR-FR?

Nick

JonB · July 22, 2004 5:54AM

I haven't seen the 8 cards in mastro's display, but I can't imagine that they are very high grade. I would think at the least, anyone with a mid to high grade wagner would want it graded for insurance purposes

magellan · July 22, 2004 6:46AM

Douglas, Welcome and thanks for sharing .

Dave

Griffins · July 22, 2004 7:16AM

Today there were 9 Wagners- a 5, a bunch of 1's, a GAI, an SGC, and a psa Auth.
Additionally the 8 was at psa's booth.
Any bets on them adding another overnite?

WinPitcher · July 22, 2004 7:26AM

Douglas nice cards! welcome to the boards too.

Buccaneer · July 22, 2004 10:25AM

Sheesh, at least one of you think there were no such thing as authentic cards before PSA et al came along. What crock full of horse hocky. In the early 1980s, I witnessed many hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cards being bought and sold...and not a single one of them were in a fancy plastic slab.

WinPitcher · July 22, 2004 10:57AM

..............and when many of those buyers found out that they had been sold over graded and in some cases altered cards 3rd party grading was born.

marz · July 22, 2004 6:35PM

james blumenthal owns one and it is registered!

mudflap02 · July 22, 2004 6:54PM

This is so like collecting when you were 8, albeit on a much larger scale. Who has the Donruss Canseco rookie? That Blumenthal kid from down the street! That card is so awesome, he is the MAN! We don't grow up, the cards just get more expensive.

Virtualizard · July 23, 2004 10:42AM

<< This is so like collecting when you were 8, albeit on a much larger scale. Who has the Donruss Canseco rookie? That Blumenthal kid from down the street! That card is so awesome, he is the MAN! We don't grow up, the cards just get more expensive. >>

Grow up? Why? BTW, my cards are better than yours, Jeff!

JEB.

Where are the T206 Wagners?

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