"Rare" is a relative term, and means different things to different collectors of different series. In the Morgan series, the 93s is rare. How many 80s's are on eBay right now?
That's exactly my point Kyle. In a lot of these auctions the term "rare" is overused. It is also interesting to note that in the five years I have been doing eBay, I have never seen so many of these offered at one time.
<< <i>In a lot of these auctions the term "rare" is overused. >>
If it's being used in reference to a 93s, I wouldn't say it's incorrect at all. While a 93s dollar may not seem rare to someone who collects proof gold or colonial coinage, it is certainly "rare" to a Morgan collector.
<< <i>It is also interesting to note that in the five years I have been doing eBay, I have never seen so many of these offered at one time. >>
This is true of many coins, on eBay and elsewhere. Recent prices have brought out a lot of coins, and perhaps even more noticeably, increased the turn-over rate of coins already on the market.
Well, maybe if you only collect Morgans it would seem rare, but in my opinion the 93-S is not a rare coin.
You brought up my other point of this thread. Prices have risen to the point of pulling these out on the market. This is another phase of the never ending cycle in the coin market. For the first time since last year the greysheet is showing minuses on some Morgan dollars, and it appears on a lot of other dates the prices are unchanged in the last couple of weeks.
I wouldnt call a 93-s Morgan a rare coin. I would call it scarcer date and the key date that has solid demand. When you compare the availability of a 93-s to the vast numbers of other dates in the sereis that are available, plus the number of collectors of the morgan sereis, its simply supply and demand. When you get up into the higher grades near MS, then it gets a little more scarcer, but still not rare IMO?
Exactly Jim. And as far as I can see, the prices have risen to the point where there are more on the market than there are buyers. I've seen many go unsold in the last couple of weeks in all grades.
Young Numismatist that collects: Morgan Dollars, SAE, Proof Sets, and Liberty Nickels. I also love to go through rolls to find coins. BST MySlabbedCoins
no,you're seeing so many now because 2 or 3 dealers bought up every one they could find about 2 years ago (hundreds of em from g4 to au58 and run the bids up on the teletypes so the CDN would base bid in the greysheet off that, always being "filled" when you went to cash in hefty off the ones you had in stock. that's greysheet bids in a couple years going from about: *************************** vg $550 to $1825 (already getting the picture?) f $825 to $2450 vf $1150 to $3600 xf $2800 to $5750 au $9000 to $16000 ms60 $23k to $55k
<< <i>I wouldnt call a 93-s Morgan a rare coin. >>
I wouldn't either; but that's only because I'm an early-coin fanatic, and have a different perception of what "rare" means. A lot of people do consider the 93s a "rare" coin, and the prices this date realizes in comparison to other Morgans show it.
I predicted this months ago while these coins were still being held back from the market. The fact that these have been few and far between for the last couple of years and all of a sudden 23 show up on eBay, plus dozens in dealer's inventories ought to tell you something.
PCGS reports 29 1893-Ss in MS 60 and above (only 11 in MS 64 or above).
In contrast in MS 60 and above, there are over 400 1901-Ps, over 200 1889-CCs, over 200 84-Ss, 105 1895-Os, but ony 56 1892-Ss (and there are less total 1892 Ss graded than there are 1893-Ss graded)
1893-S is a condition rarity - Verry scarce in Uncirculated, (as is the 1892-S) Most of the 1893-Ss and (and 1892-Ss) were released into circulation and those that weren't were probably melted in the great silver melt under the Pittman act.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
I wasn't really getting into the mint state grades, most that you see are AG-AU. But so many people call them rare in any grade. Yes, they are quite rare in mint state, but not so in circulated grades.
<< <i>That's exactly my point Kyle. In a lot of these auctions the term "rare" is overused. It is also interesting to note that in the five years I have been doing eBay, I have never seen so many of these offered at one time. >>
Agreed. "Scarce and in high demand" would be accurate, but in strict terms, "rare" is probably overstating it, even for the '93-S.
If the Morgan series weren't as popular as it is, then the '93-S might have a market value of 10% of what it currently is. "Rare" is a supply-side term, and much of the very high valuation of this piece comes from the demand side. The universe of Morgan collectors is chasing these 100,000 pieces far more than two-cent piece collectors are chasing the 1872 with a mintage of 65,000.
<< <i>I predicted this months ago while these coins were still being held back from the market. The fact that these have been few and far between for the last couple of years and all of a sudden 23 show up on eBay, plus dozens in dealer's inventories ought to tell you something. >>
What it probably means is that you shouldn't be in a rush to buy!
Relative to the Morgan series they are rare to find in relation to other dates. Rare compared to searching months or years for a date outside of the morgan series they are as common as beach sand.
As an example, the 1893-S Barber half with eight times the mintage is exponentially more difficult to find in all grades except for AG-G. In addition it costs a fraction of the morgan. Ebay link to 1893-S Barber Half
You want to talk about relative rarity? Look at the 1794 dollar, about 125 of them still around, right? You would think it 's very hard to find one, but this year so far has seen 7 of them come up for sale, just from Heritage. And there are 2 more at least coming up (one in the August ANA Heritage and one from DLRC Richmond sales). I guess the the "white hot" market just brings these rarities out.
I have to preface this by saying that I am a collector and not a dealer (vest pocket or professional); however, this past Friday, a client of mine came into my showroom (furniture & design studio) with a large bag of silver coins he inherited from his father. He had heard that I had a strong interest in coins from a coworker.
After a half hour of sorting bulk silver bullion, common date Franklins, Walkers, Washingtons, Roosevelts and a smattering of very worn Mercurys and Barber Dimes, etc., you know, the usual run of the mill stuff, which I told him the unpleasant truth that 99.9% of the things he had were at melt value.
However he did have a half dozen or so Morgans and Peace Dollars. Included in the lot, was a G6 (my opinion) 1893-S. I was floored at finding it. He had been offered $1200 for it from a dealer in Ft Myers, FL; I recommeded my local dealer in Naples; he was offered and accepted $1400 for the coin.
How did the client fare ? I thought it was a fair price for an otherwise "rare" coin in a condition that was not all that attractive (IMO).
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
And as far as I can see, the prices have risen to the point where there are more on the market than there are buyers
I watched a friend of mine by a PCGS VF25 about three months ago at the TNA show. I just put a VF30 on lay-a-way for my collection. I think they'll go up, but even if they dont, I'm into mine for the long hall.
I believe that $1400 for a G6 93-S IS VERY FAIR. Is this a rare coin? I think others have said that it is more of an issue of supply and demand...and that is true, but it goes beyond that. The 1893-s Morgan is a coin that dreams are made of... it has a legendary status among the cult collectors of Morgans and that will never change. It is in the same catagory of Elvis Sun records or even Robert Johnson Vocalion records...the bottom line is collectors want this coin and there are still not enough decent examples to go around. I remember 25-30 years ago a Robert Johnson Vocalion record would fetch $200-300 if it were really clean. Now one would fetch perhaps as much as $2500-4000. Is a VF35 1893-S Morgan that is completely original worthy of a $5500 price tag? To someone it may be or perhaps even more.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Okay... more than $5500...I can live with that. The 1870-cc is an interesting comparison... but how many collectors are seeking a full set of Seated Liberty Dollars? A noble undertaking and a series that is very cool and IMHO undervalued.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The 1893-S is the only Morgan that PCGS assigns a coin weight of 10 too. This doesn't necessarily mean it's the rarest by quantity, but more likely the hardest to find in the higher grade levels.
I don't understand the post by Majorbigtime. The mintage of the 1893-S is estimated to be 100,000. I assume he meant to refer to the 1879-CC with an estimated mintage of 756,000.
<< <i>I don't understand the post by Majorbigtime. The mintage of the 1893-S is estimated to be 100,000. I assume he meant to refer to the 1879-CC with an estimated mintage of 756,000. >>
Mintage of the 1870-CC dollar (Seated Liberty): 12,462.
Well... That explains the post on the 1870 CC. However, I thought it was understood that the "rare" was in comparison to other "Morgan" dollars. Let us stay focused here people.
<< <i>I don't understand the post by Majorbigtime. The mintage of the 1893-S is estimated to be 100,000. I assume he meant to refer to the 1879-CC with an estimated mintage of 756,000. >>
Mintage of the 1870-CC dollar (Seated Liberty): 12,462. >>
Yes, there are many collectible coins rarer than the famous 1893-S Morgan Dollar. I would rather buy a Carson City Seated Dollar than a key date Morgan if I could.
Since I don't pay attention to frequency of certain rare coins at auctions, I ask the following, since the original poster in this thread seems to say that a market at or near its peak is bringing 1893-S Morgans out of the woodwork? (I agree with him, and would wait before purchasing key date Morgans, if I were as serious as he is about building a decent collection of them.) Does today's "white hot" market make it easier to find such celebrated rarities as a 1901-S quarter or even an 1802 half dime?
I usually avoid Morgans after losing much of my previous "investment" in the hot market of the late 1980s (when common date PCGS MS-65s brought $500). Ihave retreated to coins that are too boring, too scarce, and not expensive enough for the big ego guys to promote.
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
Well if it was not possible for the average collector to complete a set of Morgan dollars I doubt there would be the interest in the 93-S and Morgans in general that there is now.
my definition of "rare" is if it qualifies as being in the top 5% of the toughest coins for the series. (i also call the next 10% "scarce") let's say there are about 100 morgan dollars (business strikes). if that's so, then my formula would be that the 5 toughest coins are the "rare" 1's. so for me, here are the "rare" morgan dollars....
the expert hath speaketh! it would seem that right now anyone who wants one can get one; hardly the mark of a "rare" coin. wuts kinda sad is all the ones who paid strong money for the net graded damaged coins. Its much harder to find a 93-CC in PCGS58 that it is to find a 93-S in any grade.
I've had the opportunity to see two 93-S Morgans in MS that the TPG's haven't counted, one an easy 63 (shot 64), and the other a 62 (IMO). I used to believe any coin that valuable must be in a holder, but I've come to learn that isn't always so. Both were in private collections assembled in the 40'-50's. I appreciate the trust the owners placed in my discretion, and would never betray it. I'm unsure what the TPG pops mean, but I'm sure they're a good indicator of relative rarity. I think there are still a good number of raw Morgan collections that the mainstream collector community hasn't, and may not ever see. The TPG's haven't been around too long, relatively speaking.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Well a mere 20 years ago none of the coins were in plastic and of course they had to be somewhere, in albums or whatever. So yeah there are probly lots of nice sets out there ungraded or unslabbed.
I say it is simple supply and demand. While not rare with around 100,000 minted. It is the most popular series collected and thus the most widely sought after key date coin.
I think prices will remain stable, and over the long haul remain strong as long as the series remains highly collected.
If I say something in the woods, and my wife isn't around. Am I still wrong?
<< <i>I think prices will remain stable, and over the long haul remain strong as long as the series remains highly collected. >>
Personally, I'm not convinced that key dates in perennially popular series will ever "crash" in terms of market value, at least not in conditions that collectors of moderate means can potentially acquire.
They may not be rocket ships going onward and upward like the registry-quality coins, but I personally think the keys in any very popular series are probably about as immune from a major price swoon as anything out there. They could drift downard a little when overheated markets (like this one) bring out a lot of examples for sale, but I think if these coins drop even a little, some of the supply goes away and more collectors "on the sidelines" now might consider going after them.
I agree with the "scarce compared to supply and demand", but not "rare". Look at the 1909S-VDB. 484,000 minted, dealers always seem to have a handful, yet they are priced out of proportion due to demand. You can get honest to God rare coins for a much smaller cost when there is not the same demand for the series. Let's face it. Morgan Dollars are one of the most popular series to collect for several reasons; people are going to drive up the price of the keys.
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Comments
Kyle
Scott
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<< <i>In a lot of these auctions the term "rare" is overused. >>
If it's being used in reference to a 93s, I wouldn't say it's incorrect at all. While a 93s dollar may not seem rare to someone who collects proof gold or colonial coinage, it is certainly "rare" to a Morgan collector.
<< <i>It is also interesting to note that in the five years I have been doing eBay, I have never seen so many of these offered at one time. >>
This is true of many coins, on eBay and elsewhere. Recent prices have brought out a lot of coins, and perhaps even more noticeably, increased the turn-over rate of coins already on the market.
Kyle
Indeed! Most especially for someone like myself that couldn't afford one in PO-01.
You brought up my other point of this thread. Prices have risen to the point of pulling these out on the market. This is another phase of the never ending cycle in the coin market. For the first time since last year the greysheet is showing minuses on some Morgan dollars, and it appears on a lot of other dates the prices are unchanged in the last couple of weeks.
jim
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
I also love to go through rolls to find coins.
BST
MySlabbedCoins
that's greysheet bids in a couple years going from about:
***************************
vg $550 to $1825 (already getting the picture?)
f $825 to $2450
vf $1150 to $3600
xf $2800 to $5750
au $9000 to $16000
ms60 $23k to $55k
<< <i>I wouldnt call a 93-s Morgan a rare coin. >>
I wouldn't either; but that's only because I'm an early-coin fanatic, and have a different perception of what "rare" means. A lot of people do consider the 93s a "rare" coin, and the prices this date realizes in comparison to other Morgans show it.
Kyle
I predicted this months ago while these coins were still being held back from the market. The fact that these have been few and far between for the last couple of years and all of a sudden 23 show up on eBay, plus dozens in dealer's inventories ought to tell you something.
In contrast in MS 60 and above, there are
over 400 1901-Ps,
over 200 1889-CCs,
over 200 84-Ss,
105 1895-Os,
but ony 56 1892-Ss (and there are less total 1892 Ss graded than there are 1893-Ss graded)
1893-S is a condition rarity - Verry scarce in Uncirculated, (as is the 1892-S) Most of the 1893-Ss and (and 1892-Ss) were released into circulation and those that weren't were probably melted in the great silver melt under the Pittman act.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>That's exactly my point Kyle. In a lot of these auctions the term "rare" is overused. It is also interesting to note that in the five years I have been doing eBay, I have never seen so many of these offered at one time. >>
Agreed. "Scarce and in high demand" would be accurate, but in strict terms, "rare" is probably overstating it, even for the '93-S.
If the Morgan series weren't as popular as it is, then the '93-S might have a market value of 10% of what it currently is. "Rare" is a supply-side term, and much of the very high valuation of this piece comes from the demand side. The universe of Morgan collectors is chasing these 100,000 pieces far more than two-cent piece collectors are chasing the 1872 with a mintage of 65,000.
<< <i>I predicted this months ago while these coins were still being held back from the market. The fact that these have been few and far between for the last couple of years and all of a sudden 23 show up on eBay, plus dozens in dealer's inventories ought to tell you something. >>
What it probably means is that you shouldn't be in a rush to buy!
As an example, the 1893-S Barber half with eight times the mintage is exponentially more difficult to find in all grades except for AG-G. In addition it costs a fraction of the morgan. Ebay link to 1893-S Barber Half
Tyler
I also think there are more than "normal" for sale right now because the prices in all grades are inflated.
After a half hour of sorting bulk silver bullion, common date Franklins, Walkers, Washingtons, Roosevelts and a smattering of very worn Mercurys and Barber Dimes, etc., you know, the usual run of the mill stuff, which I told him the unpleasant truth that 99.9% of the things he had were at melt value.
However he did have a half dozen or so Morgans and Peace Dollars. Included in the lot, was a G6 (my opinion) 1893-S. I was floored at finding it. He had been offered $1200 for it from a dealer in Ft Myers, FL; I recommeded my local dealer in Naples; he was offered and accepted $1400 for the coin.
How did the client fare ? I thought it was a fair price for an otherwise "rare" coin in a condition that was not all that attractive (IMO).
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
I watched a friend of mine by a PCGS VF25 about three months ago at the TNA show. I just put a VF30 on lay-a-way for my collection. I think they'll go up, but even if they dont, I'm into mine for the long hall.
David
The total number of MS60+ 1893-S coins graded by both NGC AND PCGS is only 43.
My Ebay Sales
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i> Is a VF35 1893-S Morgan that is completely original worthy of a $5500 price tag? To someone it may be or perhaps even more. >>
Actually thats about what I gave for mine.
Out of all of the Morgans that have passed thru my grubbly little paws I have had more of them [5] than any other date/mm.
Compare to an 1870-CC, with about 1/10th of the 1893-s mintage.
"Nuff said!
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I don't understand the post by Majorbigtime. The mintage of the 1893-S is estimated to be 100,000. I assume he meant to refer to the 1879-CC with an estimated mintage of 756,000. >>
Mintage of the 1870-CC dollar (Seated Liberty): 12,462.
...My VF30 is costing me just over that.... If you want nice things, you have to pay the owners what they want.
David
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand the post by Majorbigtime. The mintage of the 1893-S is estimated to be 100,000. I assume he meant to refer to the 1879-CC with an estimated mintage of 756,000. >>
Mintage of the 1870-CC dollar (Seated Liberty): 12,462. >>
Yes, there are many collectible coins rarer than the famous 1893-S Morgan Dollar. I would rather buy a Carson City Seated Dollar than a key date Morgan if I could.
Since I don't pay attention to frequency of certain rare coins at auctions, I ask the following, since the original poster in this thread seems to say that a market at or near its peak is bringing 1893-S Morgans out of the woodwork? (I agree with him, and would wait before purchasing key date Morgans, if I were as serious as he is about building a decent collection of them.) Does today's "white hot" market make it easier to find such celebrated rarities as a 1901-S quarter or even an 1802 half dime?
I usually avoid Morgans after losing much of my previous "investment" in the hot market of the late 1980s (when common date PCGS MS-65s brought $500). Ihave retreated to coins that are too boring, too scarce, and not expensive enough for the big ego guys to promote.
#1 1893-s
#2 1889-cc
#3 1893-cc
#4 1894
#5 1879-cc
therefore, i have NO PROBLEM w/ someone advertising these coins as "rare", in the context of collecting this series, these 5 coins ARE rare.
K S
(ps, i'm talking better grade CIRC'D coins in this example)
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I think prices will remain stable, and over the long haul remain strong as long as the series remains highly collected.
<< <i>I think prices will remain stable, and over the long haul remain strong as long as the series remains highly collected. >>
Personally, I'm not convinced that key dates in perennially popular series will ever "crash" in terms of market value, at least not in conditions that collectors of moderate means can potentially acquire.
They may not be rocket ships going onward and upward like the registry-quality coins, but I personally think the keys in any very popular series are probably about as immune from a major price swoon as anything out there. They could drift downard a little when overheated markets (like this one) bring out a lot of examples for sale, but I think if these coins drop even a little, some of the supply goes away and more collectors "on the sidelines" now might consider going after them.
1909S-VDB. 484,000 minted, dealers always seem to have a handful, yet they are
priced out of proportion due to demand. You can get honest to God rare coins for a
much smaller cost when there is not the same demand for the series. Let's face it. Morgan
Dollars are one of the most popular series to collect for several reasons; people are
going to drive up the price of the keys.