Coin Flips

ColinCMR

Is there a a difference in quality and safety for your coins between Saf-T-Flips brand flips and E&T Kointainer Saflips?

I was just wondering because of the price difference between them from most places I've looked at. I can't find these in Canada and probably will order a bunch from the US.

Thanks

wybrit

I haven't heard of any. There's a good chance I've used both, but I've never paid attention to the brands.

ColinCMR

Cool, thanks wybrit!

DeutscherGeist

I am bringing up this thread again because I am musing about flips to buy. I need some archival safe flips and I am leaning towards:

E&T Kointainer Saflip - inert, flexible and heat sealable 2"x2" (100 per pack) without inserts. The only PVC-free coin flip on the market. Archival safe PET for long-term storage. New Design! Still a full 5mil thickness. The area of the fold has been redesigned to provide a crisper less-bulgy fold. The new design makes the flips fold flatter and consume less room in storage boxes.


This price is $13.85 from Brent-Krueger. Shipping is going to be added too.

I am wondering if this flip will be safest for silver and gold coins compared to other brands. Again, I am trying to select the best product and was wondering about all factors in order to make a final choice.

DeutscherGeist

I am also considering the Lindner products:

Lindner Coin Envelope made of PVC foil

JCMhouston

If it says PVC just say no!!! Those dasterdly little molecules can get though seemingly anything when they start outgassing.

wybrit

If it says PVC just say no!!!

Lancastercoin

For my inventory I buy non-PVC flips from collectons, an internet/mail order place here in Colorado. Something like $45/1000. I also keep my pig token collection in them with acid-free inserts in a non-pvc album page.

spoon

I'm sure I've used Saf-T-Flips before but never knew it. I have bought and used Saflips though. Museums use them. Can't go wrong there.

They might be cheaper at JPs Corner - I've bought supplies from them several times, no problem.

Hyperion

as a personal collector, I always go Air Tite.....

DeutscherGeist

Thanks for the advice guys. I did more research and the E&T Kointainer Saflips are used by museums and are in fact made of 100% mylar (that is very safe for silver).
That's exactly what I was looking. I just can't understand why lindner has flips with PVC. That makes absolutely no sense because they are a high end company based in Germany for many collector's products.

JCMhouston

A lot of the Europeans and Brits just have not caught up with modern technology. Everything I get from over there is shipped in either a soft PVC flip or a paper envelope.

Lancastercoin

Many dealers, US/Asia/Europe, use PVC flips because they offer one clear advantage over saflips - they don't scuff or crack, and all non-PVC flips do. To me this is outweighed by the disadvantage of emitting corrosive gas, but from what I can tell I'm in the minority. I guess being primarily a world coin guy whose inventory doesn't "turn" as rapidly as a US dealer has something to do with it.

determined

Some things I've learned about PVC or polyvinyl chloride, flips and coins.


It's not the PVC itself that causes the damage to coins. It's the plasticizers that are added to make PVC soft that cause the damage.

PVC itself is a relatively inert, hard plastic. For example, ever see the hard white PVC plumbing pipes? That is PVC. And to be used in pipes conveying drinking water PVC would have to be inert to be safe. PVC is very biologically and chemically inert.


But you can make many different soft plastics from PVC if you add plasticizers. The problem with plasticizers is plasticizer loss where it leaches out of the soft PVC. This page, PVC Plasticizers, talks a little about PVC plasticizer loss:

"The rate of loss of plasticizer depends on plasticizer type, temperature, sheet thickness, environment and exposure time. The actual mechanism behind this loss is migration of plasticizer from the surface membrane. Generally higher molecular weight plasticizers used in a variety of product applications including PVC geomembranes and medical bags, have significantly improved plasticizer loss rates over lower molecular weight plasticizers used in low end products such as shower curtains, book binding, etc."



Ever notice how those dangerous PVC flips have that distinct plastic smell like a new shower curtain? Apparently PVC flips use the lower molecular weight plasticizers that have high loss rates. And if the coin is contacting the flip the "oily" plasticizers can migrate on to the coin. As above, this migration is going to depend on plasticizer type, temperature, sheet thickness, environment and exposure time.

A good general rule of thumb to distinguish green PVC contamination on a coin from verdigris is that generally verdigris will be in protected areas of the coin but green PVC contamination will usually be on the highest surfaces or large broad flat areas of the coin. In other words the surfaces that directly contact the PVC flip and allow the "oily" plasticizers to migrate onto the coin.


That's why you can remove a coin from a dangerous PVC flip and think you're safe. But after some time you notice PVC contamination damage developing where you didn't see it before. That's because the "oily" plasticizer had already migrated to the coin and started to do damage even after it was out of the PVC flip.

Apparently the intial contamination by the plasticizer can be hard to see on the surface of the coin.


And that is why I will give all of my coins that arrive in a PVC flip a quick dip in acetone to remove any plasticizers that might be on the coin. I want to take care of any PVC plasticizer contamination before it can do any damage. I have no idea how long a new coin has been in that PVC flip or if it is in fact contaminated. But I just want to be safe and not worry about it.

Acetone works great for this. And you don't need a long dip. Acetone cleans residues off of metal very quickly. I think a 15-30 second dip is enough for suspected, but unseen, PVC plasticizer contamination. If your coin already has the green slime it will need much longer dip(s). (See other threads on how to remove advanced PVC contamination.)


Identifying dangerous PVC flips is actually easy. They are very soft and they have that distinct plastic smell of a new shower curtain or a blow-up raft you use in a swimming pool. Those are both made of PVC softened with plasticizers. Once you've felt and smelled a PVC flip it's easy to recognize. And if I'm ever not sure I just consider it a dangerous PVC flip.

You can do a burn test, How to Test for PVC, but I've only done it out of curiosity.

NOTE: Do not do the burn test near open acetone!!!



But I still don't know what the actual chemical reaction is that takes place between the metal of the coin and the plasticizers. Some have said it forms hydrochloric acid which destroys the coin, but a poster on the US Forum who I think is a chemist said that it does not form hydrochloric acid.


To underline what DeutscherGeist said, I don't understand why reputable coin supply manufacturers and reputable coin dealers still use them.

When a coin arrives in a PVC flip I suggest always communicating to the seller that you're unhappy about it and urge them to change their flip of choice.


I just wish someone would make a safe flip that comfortably opens wide, (front to back), to hold thick ancients. I often cringe when I have to forcibly pull out a thick ancient coin from a flip and it really rubs the coin. Right now I use 2x2 polypropylene ziplocs for thick ancients. Polypropylene is considered an archival material.


BTW, Wikipedia actually has a good page on PVC in general.

determined

DeutscherGeist, Your link for the "PVC foil" does not work. I Googled "PVC foil" and could not find anything on it's composition. It may very well be coin safe depending on what plasicizers were used and how it is made. Remember it's the plasticizers not the PVC that cause the damage. But I would want verification of it's safety.

Without any information of course it is best to avoid PVC foil.

Lancastercoin

I am a chemist, and the action of Ag/Cu on PVC to produce HCl is 100% feasible on paper. The action of UV light on PVC is also known to produce free HCl without the presence of metals. Furthermore, the observed result of coins left too long in soft plastic holders is consistent with direct treatment with dilute HCl. Therefore, it is reasonably inferred that HCl is formed. This is a different thing than "flip slime" - exuded plasticizers and their decomposition products. The two work in conjunction to ruin coins since the HCl is held to the surface of the coin by the slime, preventing it from dissipating.

Lancastercoin

Also, the Beilstein test referenced by determined is an excellent way to determine the presence of PVC in coin flips.

determined

<< <i>I am a chemist, and the action of Ag/Cu on PVC to produce HCl is 100% feasible on paper. The action of UV light on PVC is also known to produce free HCl without the presence of metals. Furthermore, the observed result of coins left too long in soft plastic holders is consistent with direct treatment with dilute HCl. Therefore, it is reasonably inferred that HCl is formed. This is a different thing than "flip slime" - exuded plasticizers and their decomposition products. The two work in conjunction to ruin coins since the HCl is held to the surface of the coin by the slime, preventing it from dissipating. >>



Thank you Lancastercoin!

That is enlightening! And scary!

I never considered that there could be 2 processes going on.

I think your post is the most informative I've ever read on this subject.

wybrit

I concur with lancastercoin (I'm not a chemist, but a ChemE). I was loosely involved in a study that was done on thin metal films placed in proximity to a bench made from PVC. Results indicated that in the presence of humidity, the film corroded in a matter similar to treatment by HCl. If isolated, the reaction did not occur.

So not only is it on paper for real, it is for real.

determined

That's good information wybrit. Thank you!

Since it was a bench made from PVC I can assume there were no plasticizers involved to make it soft. So it appears that damage to metals from PVC can happen without the presence of plasticizers. As said by Lancastercoin.

This is new to me. Everything I had found before on coin damage involved the presence of plasticizers. So from this it seems that the presence of PVC can be damaging to coins without plasticizers being present. Even though the migration of plasticizers onto coins is still a very bad thing.

So from this it seems that we can say that PVC in any form can be damaging to metals/coins.

I stand corrected with some of my earlier presumptions.


Best PVC thread evar!

DeutscherGeist

I fixed the link above, so now you can all see the Lindner products I was referring to.

Saflips are made of 100% mylar, so that is archival safe without any doubt. I use polypropylene sleeves for sportscards and they have been great--they are archival material, certainly. I have also stored silver coins in those same sportscard sleeves because I needed something to protect the coins at that time even though they were awkward looking inside there. It ended up being a longer term storage, but nothing happened to the coins even after many years. Polypropylene is a good material. I am sure paper money will also do well in polypropylene holders or sleeves in the right size.

Some 20 years ago, many paper sleeves (where you put your important documents in) were not archival safe. They contained PVC (the soft one). I had a bunch of stuff from my parents that had the print stuck onto the sleeves. A lot of sticking occured ruining or damaging some of those important documents (still used for official stuff, but it was unsightly--important docs deserve better). Now, I use products from Avery Dennison and they make a bunch of paper protection products that are 100% polypropylene, PVC free, acid free, plastic softener free, archvial safe. They are inexpensive, but I value them highly because I needed to have a bunch of paper products archived safely. Its good they have all kinds of shapes and sizes available.

Since I had so much experience (Actually, I was quite fed up) with damage on old papers because it kept sticking to the sleeve, I really wished for something that did not do that. With the sportscard hobby, I eventually learned about different storage ideas, increased my knowledge on archival safe products and applied it to coins later on. I still learned alot from this thread, so I am thankful for that.

As to storing ancient coins. I know they are thicker. I would assume a larger flip would work. Those sportscard sleeves (about 1.5cents a piece) could accommodate that thick coin, but it would be soft protection since the sleeves are not hard, they are flexible.

edit to correct bold lettering, some typos

DeutscherGeist

I just spoke with Lindner-usa about the PVC flips they have. Apparently, they use a hard PVC which is archival safe. They told me that the patent is on record in Berlin, Germany as being an archival material.

We need to look into this more. Lindner is a high end company. What reason do they have not to have archival safe products? Most of their products are made in Germany and the few outsourced are carefully monitored.

I am familiar with PVC piping. If HCl is released from the pipes into the water, then that water is going to be slightly acidic. Or are the pipes that bring water all cooper and the pipes taking away water all PVC?

ColinCMR

this is an oldie post! But the info from Lancastercoin is still valuable to all!

SaorAlba

Best coins - especially copper and silver because they are more likely to have problems - go in the Kointainer capsules. I had a bad experience with an ancient coin and a PVC holder, nothing like ruining a 2300 year old coin because of some stupid gas emitting plastic.

DeutscherGeist

SaorAlba,

You cannot go wrong with the Kointainer Capsules. I won't steer you away from that if it is working for you and are satisfied with its features and price. I also think that the Air-Tites are safe too.
As a general rule, it is best to avoid PVC anything, but when a trusted manufacturer has a product made of hard PVC that has been scientifically proven to be archival safe (meaning no softeners added), that is a viable choice too. Polypropylene is also an archival safe plastic that I have personally used for about two decades--its popular for baseball cards, but I have not seen it caught on here too much.

Hussulo

I just ordered another batch of these:

http://www.predecimal.com/klar-coin-envelopes-from-predecimal-41mm-p-7679.html

Euroshaq

hi guys. I want to share some knowledge about safe coin storage and dangerous storage materials. So many people see PVC and get scared because of the negative press on poor quality coin storage products coming out of China. I am the US Branch Manager for LINDNER USA. We sell top of the line stamp and coin products across North and South America.

We use Hard PVC in the production of some of our Archival Stamp and Coin Collecting Supplies. Our PVC is 100% Archival safe as we keep the production regulated and we do not use acids or chemical softeners in the production of these items. PVC gets such a negative reputation from the influx of poor quality, unregulated production of cheap storage products. I would never consider storing anything in these products. The PVC they use in China is produced for a very low cost which allows some suppliers to offer really low prices on poor quality supplies.

I preach about quality Storage Supplies. I work a lot of Coin and Stamp Shows and I have talked to numerous collectors burned by poor quality. If you have a Gold Krugerrand worth $2,000, why would you put it in a $0.10 capsule??? Our capsules are still fairly inexpensive ( $0.45 each) but they will preserve your collectible. We focus on high quality as we are collectors. The Owner and President of LINDNER has one of the most impressive collections I have ever seen. Everything is stored in LINDNER products. I also have a modest collection, but I still store everything in LINDNER products. I think a lot is because I became educated in the poor quality products. If I didn't work here, I might want to take the cheap way out, but then I'd join the number of disappointed collectors scorned by cheap PVC and poor quality.

I am not saying that China produces poor quality products, but they are not always regulated. We carry some products from China, but we regulate everything with inspections and quality control checks. We would never outsource our production of Archival Safe materials there. The items we carry from China are usually magnifiers or carrying cases (although we make our own velour trays to ensure archival safety). I think as a Company selling storage products, everyone should label where items are produced or at least the materials used. I am happy to see "Made in Germany" or "Made in Europe" Stickers all over my warehouse. This represents quality and precision. Whether it is Coin Capsules, Flips, Coin Boxes, or even Tongs. They all are made with quality and checked to ensure that LINDNER doesn't put out poor quality products.

All the PVC items that we carry are Archival Safe. We have documentation in the Patent Office in Berlin stating the materials are safe. We use these same products for our own collections. My biggest challenge in the US Coin Market is that people are interested in price more than quality. It would be impossible to reach each collector to share the stories I've seen. Tarnished coins, yellowed, damaged banknotes, stamps that lost all value, all because people bought supplies they thought would be safe. I do not blame the collectors as much as the dealers who sell this junk. I think it is most important for collectors to educate each other. Otherwise I will continue going to Coin Shows and talking to customers who lost lots of value because they wanted to save some money on supplies.

I do not claim that I sell the best supplies that money can buy, but it is our mission statement is "We preserve value" and this remains true and makes me feel good every day I come to work. I know I am helping collectors to preserve and present the items that they cherish.


We are now offer 20% off all top quality products at www.lindner-usa.comTextText

SaorAlba

<< <i>As a general rule, it is best to avoid PVC anything, but when a trusted manufacturer has a product made of hard PVC that has been scientifically proven to be archival safe (meaning no softeners added), that is a viable choice too. Polypropylene is also an archival safe plastic that I have personally used for about two decades--its popular for baseball cards, but I have not seen it caught on here too much. >>



The only caution I have on that - nobody really knows what will happen long term in something that hasn't been used for a very long time. Look at early conservation efforts on historical paintings and what collectors used to do to coins like lacquering etc that seemed like such a good idea at the time but as the years rolled by the effort went amiss.

For one thing, I wonder about even keeping coins in capsules or even slabs long term if the conditions are not ideal. I know that PVC is hazardous to coinage in the short term, and if the conditions are not ideal and climate controlled etc I rather believe damage can and will occur down the road.

bunkai

just bought saflips. they show oil streaks. is that normal. 2 of my dollars now show spots that look like water marks

pruebas

If they are real E&T SafeFlips, that is not oil. Just an optical illusion due to the material adhereing to itself.

The spots are not due to the SafeFlips.

AUandAG

@determined said:
Some things I've learned about PVC or polyvinyl chloride, flips and coins.

PVC itself is a relatively inert, hard plastic. For example, ever see the hard white PVC plumbing pipes? That is PVC. And to be used in pipes conveying drinking water PVC would have to be inert to be safe. PVC is very biologically and chemically inert.

>
This is incorrect. PVC is not safe for drinking water. CPVC is safe. I don't know the difference but as an ex hardware store owner I do know that only CPVC is safe for water.

ADG

PVC is used for wastewater going out, not drinking water coming in.