Do you think that NGC is just as tight in awarding an MS/PR 70 as PCGS is?

dan1ecu

I see lots of modern commemoratives with the grade MS/PR 70 from both services. Do you think that NGC has as high a standard as PCGS when it comes to the "perfect" grade?

Dan

fountainheadgold

No PCGS is Tougher

Barry

Not even close, and market prices agree.

DennisH

What Barry said!

FrattLaw

How easy it is to make generalizations. There are stats to show the differences in percentage terms of NGC vs. PCGS MS/PR 70s. Someone here once posted it and I remember it being rather close. Most moderns go to PCGS so usually they have much higher numbers of modern MS/PR70s if you look at the POP reports.

The question you should also be asking is who are the MS/PR70s being made for by PCGS.

Michael

GoYankees

Along these lines, since MS/PR 70s are a bit pricey for me, can the "thread question" be applied to MS/PR 69s? In other words, are 69s from PCGS and NGC considered equal?

wondercoin

I do not take a position regarding which company grades "right" or why there could possibly be a different "standard" being employed by either company vis a vis a comparison to the other company with respect to modern coins in particular. But, the comparisons are interesting (these supplied to me by another today, as the issue comes up often, especially when collectors are comparing the price differentials between the (2) companies' coins.

Here are some numbers to consider:

2004 1/10 Gold Eagles:
NGC graded 3,128 of 8,258 MS70: 37.9%
PCGS graded 86 of 3,138 MS70: 2.7%

2004 1 Oz Gold Eagles:
NGC graded 967 of 2,238 MS70: 43.2%
PCGS graded 220 of 12,045 MS70: 1.8%

2003 1 Oz Gold Eagles-Proof:
NGC graded 101 of 218 PR70: 46.3%
PCGS graded 25 of 535 PR70: 4.7%

2003 1 Oz Proof Silver Eagles:
NGC graded 3,090 of 7,669 PR70: 40.3%
PCGS graded 159 of 5,052 PR70: 3.2%

There are many, many other examples that are similar. Using these 4
coins as an example, on a percentage basis, it was asserted to me that PCGS 70s are from "10 times to 24 times rarer than NGC 70s". All numbers from the current NGC and PCGS on line Pop reports. Are they "10-24x rarer"? If so, the question becomes "why"? If not, then "why not"? Again, not an attack on either company - but, what exactly is the difference that accounts for these "interesting" calculations?

Wondercoin

Steve27

There are dealers here who submit their modern commemoratives to NGC rather than PCGS becauce it's much easier to make a 70. They then sell them on ebay for a half to a third of what a PCGS coin would bring, but due to the larger number of 70s, they make more money with the NGC coins.

FrattLaw

<< <i>The question you should also be asking is who are the MS/PR70s being made for by PCGS. >>



Hey Wondercoin -- answer this question -- I know you know the answer -- it starts with a "T"????

BTW -- nice job supporting the hand that feeds you and your own business. What about posting stats for non bullion coins? We know who NGC is making all those coins for -- CoinVault.

How many PF70UCAM Ikes are there as compare to PR70DCAM Ikes?????? What's the ratio there?????

Michael

wondercoin

Michael: You are surely a fine lawyer - when you can say nothing concerning the "facts" presented for discussion, move away from them all together Just kidding - get a sense of humor

And, if you have any great epiphanies concerning who the largest PCGS submitters are these days, why not just state your "top 10" list. Heck, if you know who the very largest PCGS submitter is, why not state that as well. What's with the "first initials game"? And, if you have contrary stats - by all means list them.

Why do you think this is a "big fight" here rather than an educational experience? Let's engage in a pleasant discussion of the questions presented here. Perhaps we all can learn something concerning the various series of coins PCGS calculations are very different on. I am also interested in that as well. Again, issues surrounding these diverse calcuations are presented by collectors often, just as they were here. However, I have family in from out of state, so you are going to have to begin the pleasant discussion without me today.

Wondercoin

100proof1957

There are 3 kinds of "LIES"
Lies,damn lies,and statistics !
is it possible that the very large dealers submit a large percentage of coins to NGC simply because they get better service ?
I mean,unless you are Bill Gates,how long can you sit on a 1000 ounces of bullion coins ?

Proof

airplanenut

I think PCGS is tighter giving the grade, but that doesn't make them right. Now granted I'm not a professional grader, but I have never found a mark, under magnification, on a coin in a PR69DCAM/MS69 slab. Financially, both companies don't want to change:

If PCGS gives more coins 70 (suppose 10% in 69 slabs really are "70s"), then the prices of a PCGS 70 goes down, and they lose marketability.

If NGC gives fewer 70s, what are they to do if they get lots of 70s in as regrades? Keep those as 70s, then award no others?

There's no good way for either company to change without shooting themselves in the foot.

That said, take another opinion--Lee Abramson's (Heritage's grader)--speaking with him at the ANA Seminar, he said he believes only 5% of the 70s even in PCGS slabs belong there... maybe he's using more than 5x, but that shows that even one or two powers could be the difference between one company's 70 and another, thus who is right depends on the exact definition you personally use.

...or, you can just buy a PR69DCAM, because if you're like me, you see no difference, except in the price.

Jeremy

Catch22

Interesting to note that when NGC was just starting out they commanded a premium because they were considered tougher than PCGS.

LAWMAN

No, they're not. I have a whole collection of NGC MS70 commems. PCGS is much much harder, look at the pop reports.

FrattLaw

<< <i>And, if you have contrary stats - by all means list them >>



NGC PF70UCAM Ikes -- 1

PCGS PR70DCAM Ikes -- 29 (as of 07/03)

NGC PF70UCAM SBAs -- 627

PCGS PR70DCAM SBAs -- 752 (as of 07/03)

NCG PF70UCAM Kennedys -- 1234

PCGS PR70DCAM -- 1509 (as of 07/03)

Those numbers for NGC are current while the PCGS numbers are a year old. Since I don't subscribe I don't have the current PCGS POP reports, but who wants to bet that there are even more 70s made by PCGS as of today. Appears that in some instances NGC PF70s are much rarer than PCGS PR70s -- especially proof Ikes.

Michael

braddick

<< <i>

<< <i>And, if you have contrary stats - by all means list them >>



NGC PF70UCAM Ikes -- 1

PCGS PR70DCAM Ikes -- 29 (as of 07/03)

NGC PF70UCAM SBAs -- 627

PCGS PR70DCAM SBAs -- 752 (as of 07/03)

NCG PF70UCAM Kennedys -- 1234

PCGS PR70DCAM -- 1509 (as of 07/03)

Those numbers for NGC are current while the PCGS numbers are a year old. Since I don't subscribe I don't have the current PCGS POP reports, but who wants to bet that there are even more 70s made by PCGS as of today. Appears that in some instances NGC PF70s are much rarer than PCGS PR70s -- especially proof Ikes.

Michael >>

Exellent. But to make these stats truly noteworthy we would next need to know how many PR69DCAMs each Service graded. Knowing the total gradedwould also be heldful in painting the whole landscape and not a fraction of it.

cladking

Significant percentages of some bullion and modern commem issues are reported
to be screened and sent to NGC. No doubt this happens at PCGS also but it seems
NGC gets a lot of this business.

mozeppa

wondercoin

"Exellent. But to make these stats truly noteworthy we would next need to know how many PR69DCAMs each Service graded. Knowing the total gradedwould also be heldful in painting the whole landscape and not a fraction of it."

Fratt: I am curious as well. How many PR69 Ikes are there at both services (11 different dates combined) and what % have, therefore, graded PR70 at each service? Incidently, it takes quite an extraordinary Proof Ike to grade PR70DCAM at PCGS. I am in the middle of a project in which I am examining multi-thousand PCGS-PR69DCAM slabbed silver and clad Ikes. I am studying both the depth of cameo and planchet quality of each specimen. It is truly amazing what it takes to have a virtually flawless proof Ike specimen, not to mention a MONSTER TWO-SIDED DEEP CAMEO coin. Once my research is completed, I may publish the results on my website.

Wondercoin

FrattLaw

<< <i>I am curious as well. How many PR69 Ikes are there at both services (11 different dates combined) and what % have, therefore, graded PR70 at each service? >>



You just gotta make me work don't you ---

4529 total NGC PF69UCAM Ikes graded -- 1 PF70UCAM that's .02%

10984 total PCGS PF69DCAM Ikes graded -- 29 PR70DCAMs that's .26%

Which actually makes a NGC PF70UCAM Ike far more rare than any PCGS PR70DCAM Ike.



<< <i>it takes quite an extraordinary Proof Ike to grade PR70DCAM at PCGS >>



Are you really sure about this statement and not really puffing. Tad (Supercoin) indicated to me that many of the PCGS PR70DCAMs that were graded all from the same submission -- years ago -- wouldn't make PR69DCAM today. I also thought he was one of the only people to have a 70DCAM Ike downgraded to its rightful grade. But perhaps I might have mistaken his statement "crappy looking coins" for "quite an extraordinary Proof Ike." It's been a while so I'm not really sure at this point.

Michael

wondercoin

"Tad (Supercoin) indicated to me that many of the PCGS PR70DCAMs that were graded all from the same submission -- years ago -- wouldn't make PR69DCAM today"

Fratt - Yeah - we all know about some of "original" batch of PR70DCAM Ikes graded many years ago (with some having developing tiny spots, etc). I personally got (2) off the market, discussed the issue with board members here (as Tad did) and with PCGS management (ask Rick Montgomery about this very issue - and he just might tell you I drove him crazy on the issue of PR70 Ikes while he was in charge at PCGS) and I believe Tad also removed one or two as well. You mention these events like you have first hand knowledge of these coins. Have you ever even seen a PCGS-PR70DCAM Ike in your life?

I can assure you that Tad has not seen a single one of the half dozen or so PR70 Ikes graded in the past several years at PCGS. Nor have you. And, without even having seen a single PR70 Ike graded by PCGS in the past two years, you desire to question the quality of the coins? I could appreciate your comments if they were backed BY ANYTHING. I have seen EVERY PCGS-PR70DCAM Ike graded by PCGS in the past 2 years and I have also seen multi-thousands of PCGS-PR69DCAM Ikes as well. Repeat thousands and thousands of PCGS-PR69DCAM Ikes I have personally inspected.

Come on Fratt - "puffing" was a little strong - next time you are in Orange County make it a point to stop by and allow me to show you first hand what a PCGS-PR70DCAM Silver Ike looks like. I guarantee it will BLOW YOU AWAY and will be worth your time

Wondercoin

dorkkarl

according to david hall's own estimates, ngc's population used to more accurately reflect reality, ie. the % of proof coins / high grade business strikes that were 70's. now, according to what some board members say, pcgs has loosened up to where a more reasonable %age are achieving these high grades.

(comment based on what other board members & david hall himself have posted here on the forum)

K S