Help!! I need Opinions

TMc

I recently sold a 1954 xmas rack pack to a seller on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44827&item=5105279681

Sorry not sure how to do links. After opening the rack, he was disappointed with the condition of the cards. Those familiar with this board know the history of the xmas racks. Long story short, he wants a refund. My question is...If a buyer enters a market segment without knowledge of that segment, is the seller responsible for educating him in his description? I listed the item knowing the background of the racks, but not think it was necessary to go into a detailed description. Was I wrong here? How do you refund when someone has opened a vintage rack? Any thouhgts? I just want to do the right thing, or tell this guy he is nuts to want his money back after opening the rack.

sportscardguy

Nope, you are not at fault, however, be prepared for a neg....

Linkage

sportscardguy

On second thought, nevermind. You didn't leave him feedback after he paid, hope he negs you.

CuseSteve

I dont think you are at fault at all...

Same as me not winning on a scratch off lotto ticket and asking for a refund....

WinPitcher

once he opened it he lost all chance of getting a refund in mho

SoFLPhillyFan

Agreed. It looks to me as if the buyer could get a fair chance to assess the quality of the card without opening the pack, given tht they are like cello.
We take our chances and live with the results.
In the future I may offer a return policy that states the buyer can get a refund if the packs are not opened and returned in good condition.

Keith

Aknot

<< <i>On second thought, nevermind. You didn't leave him feedback after he paid, hope he negs you. >>



I missed the rule that says you have to leave feedback within a certain amount of time? I usually leave feedback in "batches" waiting to get a "group" together and doing it in one sitting.

He still has time to leave that feedback........

stevek

TMc - I'll give you credit in that you did not state or imply that it was a "Topps" issued rack pack. Virtually every, if not every, other seller who I've seen on ebay with those rack packs, states or implies that they were made by Topps. That being said, without a having a brief explanation of the exact history of that rack pack, most buyers are going to assume that it was made by Topps and assume the cards were new when placed in the rack pack. By not stating the exact history of the rack pack, which of course netted higher bid amounts than would have been gotten otherwise, this set yourself up for the consequences. The customer's money should be refunded after the cards are returned. It's not a total loss - you can always resell the cards.

TMc

I have a few problems with a refund.
1) I don't know the seller (althought his feedback is near perfect). There will always be the thought of did I get back what he pulled?
2) He opened the darn thing. The rack is clearly visable throught the cello wrapping. If dissatisfied, send it back in tact and I would have refunded.
3) Back to the education thing. These have been around for 3 years when Murphy started selling them. I bought mine from him. Is it my responsibility to educate the buyer.
4) There are 8 up on ebay now. This one was the cheapest. If the buyer had shopped like we all do, he might have gotten a better education that just my description.
5) If I were to buy a 50s cello blind, with no knowledge of its market worth, does that qualify me for a refund after I've opened it and am dissatisfied.

Pretty confused on this end. Just trying to do the right thing. Raw cards are not worth a fraction of the price of unopened. Just hate to take the loss, when I'm not sure what I would have done differently without a massive description and educationing all readers.

I guess the question is "How far should the seller go to educate readers/potential buyers on specialty rare items.

Aknot

<< <i>TMc - I'll give you credit in that you did not state or imply that it was a "Topps" issued rack pack. Virtually every, if not every, other seller who I've seen on ebay with those rack packs, states or implies that they were made by Topps. That being said, without a having a brief explanation of the exact history of that rack pack, most buyers are going to assume that it was made by Topps and assume the cards were new when placed in the rack pack. By not stating the exact history of the rack pack, which of course netted higher bid amounts than would have been gotten otherwise, this set yourself up for the consequences. The customer's money should be refunded after the cards are returned. It's not a total loss - you can always resell the cards. >>



So shouldnt the buyer have inquired BEFORE bidding? At the very least shouldnt he have responded before he opened the pack? I can see returning the pack unopened and giving a refund but after the customer has opened the item no way.

jrdolan

I agree with stevek that the customer probably thought he was getting a Topps-issued rack pack with cards in a condition you would normally associate with that.

However... What's to stop the buyer from subbing commons for any star cards he may have pulled from this rack? Then he gets his money back and the stars for free. Couldn't he tell what condition of at least the top and bottom cards BEFORE opening? These ARE see-through racks, are they not? If he hadn't opened it I would say he has a much stronger basis to ask for a refund.

TMc

I think I am going to invite the buyer in so that we can get his side. Not sure he will join, but I'm sure he will have a different take.

Aknot

<< <i>
I guess the question is "How far should the seller go to educate readers/potential buyers on specialty rare items. >>



It depends. How "bad" do you want to sell it. If I have a rookie Dan Marino card PSA 10 do I have to put there are only "X" graded 10? The item should sell itself.

With your item I believe you described it enough that two things are going to happen.

1) Someone expirenced in that item is going to bid on it getting what he knows it is.
2) Someone that is clueless is going to bid on it BUT ask and or researches the item before bidding.

If you do not know what you are bidding on dont bid. Or ask before you bid. Its how much information YOU want to give to sell yyour item. Just dont say it is something that it is not.

Ironmanfan

You accurately described the item and lets face facts, 6 of the 12 cards are visible from the Rack Pack (50%) and the buyer sees them and opens it nonetheless & is not happy and wants a refund? I'd be willing to refund the buyer's money if the pack was left unopened, but once it was opened, all bets are off as far as I'm concerned. Stick to your guns TMc, you did nothing wrong. Don't let the idea of a "negative" intimidate you. Buyers who look at your feedback will know that you are an honorable Ebayer!

stevek

Some good valid points which caused me to change my view a little bit. Good idea to invite the customer into the discussion. I think from the customers current point of view, the pack was tampered with and non-new cards were inserted meaning that there was no chance of getting any star cards. Nobody tampering with a pack is going to leave the star cards in there. I think if the history of the rack pack was explained to the customer, and him realizing that he could have received some star cards, and that the customer shouldn't receive his full money back because the "gamble" aspect of the cards is no longer there, then I think the customer should agree to some reasonable compromise - maybe a refund of say $100. But I still think that definitely a refund of some of the money should be given.

Aknot

Stevek,

His description includes:
"The pack contains a total of 12 cards and can have any card inserted from that year."

So any card from 1954 can be included.

The only concern the buyer has is "who" made the rack pack correct? I mean the rack was untampered. Sealed. The "history" on these packs are they are "hand" made after opening packs correct?

Did the buyer know that?
Tell you what before I drop over $300 on something Im making sure I know what I am buying.

As for the condition. You can look at the cards (6 of 12) through the plastic. If there were concerns with the condition it should have been brought up BEFORE the pack was opened.

metsfan

I don't think everyone knows the history of these racks. Since the racks were not put together by Topps, they are in about EX condition. If you say this in this listing you would be safe. You never mention condition in your listing, so the seller assumes there in NM or better condition. I think you should refund some money. Ask the buyer what cards he got(you should know 6 of 12 already), and figure out the book value of these. Then subtract that from the amount he paid. I think that is a fair compromise.

Rainman

if i were the seller, i'd have listed the background of the packs. i know that when i first entered the vintage market years ago, i wasn't familiar w/the background of those packs or the '51 red back packs that were apparently found by the boatload in ny awhile back. i didn't have the benefit of growing up during the 50s, so before educating myself about the packs, i had assumed that they were genuine/from topps etc. it's not just a cya thing to discuss the history; it's an "if i were the buyer, i'd want to know this" type of thing.

just my 2 cents

pandrews

<< <i>
I missed the rule that says you have to leave feedback within a certain amount of time? I usually leave feedback in "batches" waiting to get a "group" together and doing it in one sitting.

He still has time to leave that feedback........ >>



same here..

MonstersOTG

Some good valid points which caused me to change my view a little bit. Good idea to invite the customer into the discussion. I think from the customers current point of view, the pack was tampered with and non-new cards were inserted meaning that there was no chance of getting any star cards. Nobody tampering with a pack is going to leave the star cards in there. I think if the history of the rack pack was explained to the customer, and him realizing that he could have received some star cards, and that the customer shouldn't receive his full money back because the "gamble" aspect of the cards is no longer there, then I think the customer should agree to some reasonable compromise - maybe a refund of say $100. But I still think that definitely a refund of some of the money should be given.


I do not agree. If the buyer wasn't happy with the pack when he received it he should have contacted the seller about a refund before he opened it! How can anyone ask for a refund after they have opened the pack? Go to any card shop or to a card show and buy a pack, open it and then ask for a refund becouse you didn't like what was inside and people will call you crazy.

My opinion: If the pack has been opened he should get nothing.

Paul.

stevek

Paul - I doubt that many of us have handled any of those rack packs. From the scans that I've seen on ebay, the cellophane on them doesn't seem that clear so maybe it's not that easy to see the corners. In any event if a buyer is assuming the cards are new, without a close inspection, he is just going to immediately open the pack to see what is in between the other cards. The customer of course then notices the EX or EXMT condition, realizes the cards were not new when inserted in the pack, and figures he was scammed. I am, and most others on this forum are experienced collectors and we would have done this differently. I'm just analyzing it from a novice customer's perspective.

The customer should not get a total refund but should get some refund. Hey - I gave TMc credit and I'll give him some more for even posting the thread - most ebay sellers who sell these rack packs, would laugh at the buyer's request for a refund and just take the feedback neg.

Steve

MonstersOTG

The customer should not get a total refund but should get some refund.


Let's just agree to disagree.

Paul.

Aknot

Buying non-graded cards can be somewhat tricky, especially given the challenge of accurately determining the exact condition of a card from afar. Even a quality scan makes card evaluation difficult. There are a couple rules to abide by when buying non-graded sports cards on eBay:

View the scan of the card carefully. Make sure you are able to see the corners and centering of the card fairly well.
Know a little history about the card. Remember that famous and more valuable cards should be viewed with more discretion.

Straight from Ebay. So if you have a question BEFORE you bid, ask. The seller in no way appears to have attempted to mislead the buyers.

Didnt like the scan, ask for a better one. Didnt know about the "packs" ask the seller or "google.

Simple as that.

stevek

Aknot - Excellent points made for when buying on ebay. I hope people follow your points to avoid bad situations. Most sellers who I ask questions to, will respond with an answer - the ones that don't respond, then I simply don't bid no matter how much I like the card.

Hope TMc let's us know how this gets resolved.