PR70DCAM vs. PR69DCAM - The REAL Difference?

ellewood

As I have been assembling a Lincoln proof registry set over the past few months (and am having an absolute blast doing it!), I have been noticing the onslaught of PR70 DCAMS in others registry sets. My question (and I'm sure there have been many debates/discussions about this) is what exactly sets a PR70DCAM apart from a PR69 DCAM coin BESIDES several hundred/thousand dollars? What is it that the grader at PCGS sees in the 70 that he does not see in the 69? I, for one, am afraid to buy a PR70DCAM for the simple reason that it could turn a bit in the holder...and downgrade itself to a PR69DCAM over time. I would love to hear some opinions and, if there are past discussions...I'd love to read them as well. For now...I'm happy with my PR69DCAMS......

Compa

It isn't just what they see in a 70 that they don't see in the 69 but also what they don't see in the 70 that they do see in the 69 ... like little tiny marks or haze. They really are perfect. PCGS has a guarantee that they do pay out on if a coin in a holder doesn't deserve it's designation.

Typetone

70s have to be flawless under 5x, 69s can have a small flaw somewhere. We have all noticed that many 70DCAMs have small flaws somewhere. So make sure if you buy one that it really is perfect. If its not, it might be hard to resell, and you will need to use the PCGS guarantee. They really are good at honoring the guarantee, but you may not recover full retail price.

For example, about a year ago I bought what appeared to be a perfect common date Kennedy half in 70DCAM for $595 (full retail then). Just a few months ago, I decided to sell it. However, I discovered a small flaw hidden on the reverse, and yet visable under 5x if you really looked. In my view that made it not saleable as a 70. I sent it to PCGS for guaranteed regrade. They agreed that it was a 69, reholdered it, and reimbursed me for $400. 70 prices have come down some in the last year, however, I believe that the reimbursement was closer to the wholesale than the retail side of the market (70 DCAM dealers, is that correct?). So, even apart from the market price change, I believe that I still lost some money (my fault for not seeing the flaw in the first place). I recently sold the reholdered 69DCAM for $29.

Lesson, if you buy 70s, make sure you know what you are buying, and look very, very close.

Greg

wondercoin

"They agreed that it was a 69, reholdered it, and reimbursed me for $400. 70 prices have come down some in the last year, however, I believe that the reimbursement was closer to the wholesale than the retail side of the market (70 DCAM dealers, is that correct?). "

Greg: Actually, I retail PR70DCAM Kennedy Half Dollars for $400 (common dates of course). I could select "a beauty" for anyone at that price level.

Wondercoin

Typetone

Mitch:

Well, maybe PCGS did pay retail. Even a better testatment to the guarantee.

Mine was a 1992s clad which I bought for $595 in December 2002. Have prices come down that much, or did I just way overpay?

Greg

wondercoin

Greg: I am not sure about the particulars of your deal a year ago, but, $400 is fair retail today IMHO. Again, anyone who might want one at $400 - just PM me. Also, let me clarify "retail" in this case - this isn't "retail" as in buying clothes at a clothing store - this level on this generic PR70 is "retail"/"wholesale" with a range of say 15% of so between the (2) points.

Wondercoin

Cameonut

Only time will tell if the modern PR70DCAMS are worth the investment for such a marginal improvement over a PR69DCAM. I own several '70's but for my money, I prefer to find a exceptional '69. The differences are miniscule. My personal value model does not value a '70 at 20-40 times a $15 '69 when you have to scrutinize the coin at 5x to find any difference. I will be a buyer when the '70's are about 8-10 times the price of a '69.

Until then, IMO, the only ones that will make money on '70's are the people who make and deal them, not the collectors.

wondercoin

There are "monster DCAM" PR69DCAM specimens out there that are truly amazing coins in virtually all the modern proof series. Since the thread mentioned Lincoln cents, let me say that for the pre-1984 Lincoln cent proof years, locating a spectacular "MONSTER DCAM", super high-end coin for the PR69DCAM grade is no easy task. I am personally building a collection of these coins myself right now and I am proud of this (currently 55th place) collection in progress. Once I finish up the collection in PR69DCAM grade, I can then consider adding PR70DCAM coins that significantly improve my PR69DCAM examples. Over enough years, I hope to build a nice collection in this series.

However, let me also comment that IMHO, the PR70DCAM Lincoln cents coming out of PCGS this year are, overall, truly spectacular specimens. I have heard PCGS incorporates a "double verification" process these days (perhaps used here?) and these PR70DCAM Lincolns are amazing coins - make no mistake about that.

So, it really is a personal thing - the typical PR69DCAM Lincoln cent will not look like the typical PR70DCAM - but, since a PR69DCAM Lincoln can sell for $15 and a PR70DCAM around $350 and up, many collectors will prefer the $15 PR69 variety. And, some collectors with a sharp eye may also build sets of coins with well above "typical" PR69DCAM quality and I would not be personally surprised to see those coins trading somewhere between the (2) price points in the years ahead.

Wondercoin

earlwbollinger

I wonder if a PR70DCAM would still be a PR70DCAM in 10 years, 15 years or 20 years?
Would some sort of environmental effects start to come into play over that period of time, eg. humidity, temperature, etc.
I would suspect that you'd need to store them in Intercept Protection containers, but even then, some contaminants in the plastic slab itself or something might still be there.
Unfortunately, I don't have any PR70DCAM coins anymore, so I can't say what might happen.

MrPlatinum

Hey Mitch,

I have a $50 Proof 70 DCAM that I paid $14,500 not saying from where, it has small carbon flecks, do you honestly think I'll get my $ back even with proof of what I paid.

I think not...


This is why I stopped buying 70's, if I cant make them myself from this point on it's not worth it (for me)at least.

wondercoin

Hey Mitch,

I have a $50 Proof 70 DCAM that I paid $14,500 not saying from where, it has small carbon flecks, do you honestly think I'll get my $ back even with proof of what I paid.

I think not...


Leo: To date, I have never heard of a issue involving a PCGS-PR70DCAM coin not being resolved fairly. On the other hand, I have heard of (and have been involved with first hand) many situations being resolved to the full satisfaction of the owner of the "problem" coin. Sounds like you have a coin you may want to show DH or Miles.

Wondercoin

ellewood

Thank you everyone (especially Mitch) for all of their input on this issue. For the record, I just purchased three 69DCAMS (all mid 1970's) from Mitch (received them yesterday) and they are truly spectacular coins. Mitch, please let me know when you nail down a 72-S for me...that's what I'm really looking for at this time. I am looking forward to seeing the "monster DCAM" collection....I'm sure you will end up close to the top. Afterall, someone needs to give this Cameron Stanley a run for his $$$$.

wondercoin

Ellewood: Those (3) early date PR69DCAM coins I sent you were not your "average bear". Glad you appreciated the difference

I have already begun featuring date run sets of handpicked PR69DCAM's coins on my www.wondercoin.com (other) website as I recognize PR70DCAM coins are not for everyone. I have already completed PR69DCAM Ike collections, which are now available for sale and I am currently working on handpicked 1977-date PR69DCAM Lincoln sets. Kennedys, state quarters to follow. The "work" never ends

Wondercoin

MrPlatinum

Hey Mitch I have 2 boxes I showed Miles of nothing but gold 70's do you want a shot at disposing these for me?

I honestly do not want to deal with 70 graded coins personally. (you know why)

Maybe a trade for some plat 70?

braddick

PR69DCAM? PR70DCAM? The real difference is all the difference. It's like comparing Diamonds and cubiczirconia.

RELLA

<< <i>Afterall, someone needs to give this Cameron Stanley a run for his $$$$. >>

Uh...Cameron Stanley is a "her", right?

As for the 69 vs. 70 debate...here's my two Lincolns: Not all "properly graded" PCGS PR70RD DCAM Lincolns are created equal IMO. I have bought and sold about a dozen of these over the last few years; most of which I would call solid examples for the grade. I have seen a number of other pieces consigned to Heritage auctions (including certain specimens from both Mitch and from John Troy) that were clearly superior.

These superior coins shared the same flawless strike, bold even coloration and immaculate surfaces that any properly graded PR70RD DCAM would possess, but two important differences were readily apparent:
1. The cameo devices exhibited a marked lack of granularity, with a texture that was closer to creamy or silky vs. a more frosted appearance, allowing a greater preservation of detail on the devices than on other proofs. Instead of the cameo contrast being muted by this as one might assume it would be, the luster was somehow even more intense. So the key here isn't the fineness of the cameo contrast but the fact that there is no loss of cameo contrast or luster associated with it.
2. The fields on these pieces were not perfectly smooth and glasslike; instead they featured varying degrees of an extremely intricate waveform pattern almost identical to the highly coveted "orange peel" effect seen on the earliest die states of Liberty Gold proofs. In almost any light, this produces a liquid appearance in the fields along with amazingly deep and clear reflectivity.

I used to not care for proof coins at all; IMO this just goes to show that after looking at enough coins in any series any true coin nerd will find something unique and appealing to appreciate.

RELLA

wondercoin

"I have seen a number of other pieces consigned to Heritage auctions (including certain specimens from both Mitch and from John Troy) that were clearly superior."

Roger: As you know - I wasn't collecting the series at the time. I recall your excitement about a couple of the coins. The coins are gone - ancient history. Now, it is time to rebuild! Next time you are in town, remind me to show you a few of my recent proof Lincoln finds.

Wondercoin