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Update for Toned Coin Collectors Society

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  • NicNic Posts: 3,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm in. Great idea. I will try to make the meeting. K
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


    << <i>Gee, I wonder if we will every see the" Artfully Toned by The Skilled Hand of Man Association". >>



    Bear - I'm sure that we'll address the issue of "artfully toned coins" - but I don't think the ones with their "skilled" hands (or their chemicals & ovens) will join our group - But maybe we'll do an exhibit of the "toners" that you won't want to buy for your collection - I'll bet we can even find a few in reputable slabs - you know, every now and then one slips through image

    I did a quick count & just through this forum we have over 30 persons interested in the TCCS - about another 5 from accross the street, + about a dozen or so founders - so we're off to a good start. If you're interested make sure that you send me your name and at least an email address & I'll email applications in pdf format

    I've reserved a name www.tonedcoins.org - but although I might know a little bit about coins after collecting for 50+ years, you could put what I know about websites in a thimble and have room left over for a least a couple of toned Morgans - fortunately we do have some very talented people who know how to set up websites and with the commitment we've received, I think we'll try and get something up and running on the web so we can have a downloadable application form that can be filled out and returned to me -

    For all of those who have expressed interest and offered to help, my greatfull thanks - Either post or PM ideas for projects that you are interested in - Those of you that know me know that my primary interest is collecting toned Morgans (in addition to IHCs, Patterns & FE cents), but if I see a neat toned coin from another series that I like, I'll generally try to buy it.

    If anyone who has expressed interest in this organization has a speciality area, let me know what it is and we will be able to use your expertise in that area - Collectively this group will have a tremendous amount of knowledge as to the various series of toned coins and we want to be able to share that knowledge and interest with other collectors. I hope you will all participate, voice your opinions (civilally, please image ) and I hope to see many of you in Pittsburgh for the 1st ever meeting of the Toned Coin Collectors Society! image

    Here's a little eye candy - one of my favorite coins - this is what started my fascination with toned coins (plus sharing a table with Jason at FUN - hard to look at some really stunning toners for 4 days and not get hooked!) My "Christmas Tree is even better "in the flesh" image I'll have in on Display in Pittsburgh along with a few others that I really like



    image
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • I have been mulling it over and I think it is a great idea. My concern would be lawsuits. I have sat on many boards and we always had insurance. You may want to consider that aspect. I am very interested in being a dues paying member.
    Michael
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


    << <i> My concern would be lawsuits. I have sat on many boards and we always had insurance. You may want to consider that aspect. I am very interested in being a dues paying member. >>



    I don't particulary disagree, but I've been a member of The Society of U.S. Pattern Collectors, The Fly-In Club, MSNS, & other numismatic organizations and none of thes organizations generate any level of lawsuit activity that I'm aware of. I practice law in my daytime job, and I regularly advise clients how to conduct their affairs so as to avoid unnecessary lawsuits - not to say that someone or an organization can't be sued and that the suit won't be frivilous at that, but at this juncture, I don't preceive that what we would like to do - educate collectors and share knowledge (and a whole lot of great images of neat eye candy) will generate any desire to file lawsuits against us -

    - Besides - we're gonna comp the dues for all the lawyers on these boards so that we have about a dozen members who are, as the song goes: "meaner than a junk-yard dog" image

    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • foodudefoodude Posts: 3,568 ✭✭✭
    Besides - we're gonna comp the dues for all the lawyers on these boards so that we have about a dozen memebers who are, as the song goes: "meaner than a junk-yard dog

    Hmmm ..., and I was considering paying ... "meaner than a junk-yard dog" my clients think I'm nice, usuallyimage
    Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭


    << <i>Besides - we're gonna comp the dues for all the lawyers on these boards so that we have about a dozen members who are >>



    Hey I like this group already. Usually I have to pay more to join a certain group because I'm a lawyer!!!

    Michael
  • MadMonkMadMonk Posts: 3,743
    Sounds like a worthy endeavor!image
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    I'll join as long as I get first shot at buying everyone's beautifully toned gem-quality Morgans !!!

    <ducking> Gee, why is everyone throwing eggs at me?

    Best,
    Sunnywood
  • jbstevenjbsteven Posts: 6,178


    << <i>Hey I like this group already. Usually I have to pay more to join a certain group because I'm a lawyer!!! >>



    Frattlaw:

    You have not seen the WHOLE bylaws yet. We have written a clause just for you and the double dues thing, just wait till the ANA and we will show you.


    image



    image
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    Serious question for a moment --

    Are the dealer members going to have to agree to NEVER sell an AT coin even if it is slabbed by one of the majors?

    Michael
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,148 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Are the dealer members going to have to agree to NEVER sell an AT coin even if it is slabbed by one of the majors? >>

    Define AT, Mike.
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    Jeremy

    I'm refering to certain Hoards that perhaps at one time slipped past NGC, ANACS or PCGS where a few coins were slabbed but later the TPGs refused to slab any more. Or perhaps coins that some of the AT Ebay doctors have gotten past the TPGs. What I'm asking is that when this situation arises will the dealer members agree to take those coins off the market or will they be sold right next coins that aren't as questionable.

    Credibility is everything. So how much influence will this group have if the dealer members sell coins that are of questionable origin knowing that the big three TPGs consider the coins AT.

    One of the biggest complaints I see/hear about PNG/ANA is that they don't police their own. Shouldn't the members, dealer and collectors alike agree as a bylaw not to profit from questionable coins even if they are slabbed? Just because PCGS/NGC scr*wed the pooch on a coin, doesn't make it right to sell it to someone and profit off their mistake. As an organization, I believe that both PCGS and NGC would want to work with us to buy back these coins to take them off the market. It's their credibility as well.

    There should be a procedure in place to deal with questionable coins and having them bought back by the PCGS or NGC. I would even agree to a higher yearly dues to create a fund for this type of work.

    Michael

    Edited to add --

    << <i>Pat, I dare you to crack that PCGS coin and resubmit it >>



    Jeremy -- Any coin that you make this statement about would also fall into the class of coins I'm talking about.
  • Michael- Putting something like that in writing would be rediculous. Of the dealer members listed on so far, none of us would sell a coin we think is AT. We wouldn't purchase one to begin with. The problem arises in defining exactly what AT is. What may be a nobrainer AT coin to me may be something that you thnk is fine. I remember you showing me a few of your coins that I was not so sure about. Will you now have them dipped or destroyed if a consensus of the members in the new club agree with me? Maybe that should be in the bylaws also. I think not. The club is being set up for educational reasons along with the comradery aspect of being able to share your treasures with others who appreciate them as well. Would you please take your lawyer hat off at the door and just walk in as a fellow toned coin collector?
    David Schweitz
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    David

    No offense, but I've seen the dealer/members here buy and sell those types of coins. I'm not talking about coins that are "suspect" -- re-read my post. I'm talking about coins that are KNOWN to be questionable and the majors non-longer slab them. You know exactly the coins I'm referring to and so do others on this Board. There's no need to take pot shots at me or my coins. I've always been friendly with you. I haven't "named" anyone.

    I've heard some dealers say -- "Well if PCGS slabs it, it must be okay." Bullsh*t! If you know the coin is questionable why sell it? Cause a dealer can make money off of it? This isn't about having a lawyer hat on, it's about doing what's right.

    As far as taking coins off the market -- I've had 1 toned Peace $ bag for Questionable Color -- I dipped it and it now serves as my money clip. So to answer your question, if I thought/knew a coin was AT, even if I could get it "slabbed" and sell it for $$$$ I wouldn't. Dip it and take the loss, or try to get PCGS or NGC to buy the coin back. What's wrong with that?

    Michael

  • Michael- I wasn't trying to take a shot at you, only trying to make a point. My opinion is only that, an opinion. There are very few coins in PCGS or NGC holders that you can say are no brainer AT coins. I will agree with you that for those coins, they should not be bought and sold by dealers in this organization, or for that matter, collectors as well. As one of the founding members of this club, I can state to you that the idea behind this club was not to become a "coin posse". If you expect that to happen then please go start your own club. I don't want to be involved with such an organization. You have been an advocate for cleaning up the coin business from the days we first met. I agree that we may have some problems in this business. I am just not in favor of the way you wish to go about doing it.
    David Schweitz
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    David

    I'm not here to "clean up the coin business." If I wanted to go that route the lawsuits would have already been filed and the complaints served. I think you know that. That's not my angle. I'm not part of the "establishment" I'm an outsider looking in who feels comfortable advocating certain positions on these Boards and in person. I'm not beholden to anyone in this business. There are things I know about this business, TPGS and some dealers, but those secrets are kept confidential, as my role as an attorney. And I'm not here to name names, we all have families to support and mortgages to pay. I mean no harm to anyone. But having the knowledge that I do makes me question certain practices as a collector.

    And I'm not advocating that this club be a "coin posse." (how I hate that term) All that I'm saying and now it appears that you agree with me is that -- if you're going start a toned coin club and if you buy/sell toned coins, have the good sense not to buy/sell slabbed coins that you know to be questionable. I'm merely advocating that the Charter Members of this organization who probably have the ability to pick up the phone and call the TPGs use that ability to take certain coins off the market. As a collector I don't have that opportunity. Everyone wins.

    Michael
  • Michael- Well it appears that we are in agreement. I look forward to talking coins with everyone at our inaugural meeting in Pittburgh. I hope everyone tries to bring some coins for show and tell. Michael, I hope you can make it to the meeting, but if not, we will try to get together another meeting in Long Beach.
    David Schweitz
  • scherscher Posts: 924
    I will be there..very exciting..I will bring some cool coins too...
    Bruce Scher
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I hate toned coins...

    image

  • TDN- Luckily for you, I am bringing a can of dip for Puff's Walkers. I will meet you at the PCGS table with my tile nippers in hand and we can go to work making all your Seated dollars shiney and bright.image
    David Schweitz
  • Bruce- I think you should skip this show. I heard from a very reliable source that the Heritage auction had nothing in it that you would like.image
    David Schweitz
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not looking for an argument but I find this comment interesting.


    << <i>There are things I know about this business, TPGS and some dealers, but those secrets are kept confidential, as my role as an attorney. And I'm not here to name names >>



    Did they retain you? I find it also interesting you want to close everybody down for bad ethics, and the like, yet you seem to have information and hiding behind the "Lawyer Badge." Just an observation mind you.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • TonekillerTonekiller Posts: 1,308 ✭✭
    Please folks, start another thread. This is an announcement of a new club / organization.
  • TonedCoinTraderTonedCoinTrader Posts: 2,765 ✭✭✭
    image






    Toned Coins for sale @ tonedcointrader.com
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


    << <i>Serious question for a moment --

    Are the dealer members going to have to agree to NEVER sell an AT coin even if it is slabbed by one of the majors?

    Michael >>



    Michael that's an issue to be taken up with the grading service that graded the coin - we are NOT a grading service. If you own a slabbed coin that you think is AT, you're remedy is submit that coin to the TPGS with your reasons as to why you think the coin should be de-certified. We don't get paid to grade coins, and we are not the entity responsible for "removing" those coins from the slabs under a grading guarantee. If you want to buy slabbed coins that you think are AT & remove them from the slabs, that's certainly your perogative, but that is NOT the pupose of this organization. Apparantly you din't read what our goals and objectives are.
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • sTONERsTONER Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭
    this club is supposed to be fun and exciting,, if need be ,, i,ll pass some of my PAXIL out for some of you guys,to lighten up, on a club that should have been started years ago. lets have fun with this guys and not wreck it before it gets startedimage,,STEVE
    toner loner
  • PAXIL club. Where do I sign up?
    David Schweitz
  • sTONERsTONER Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭


    << <i>PAXIL club. Where do I sign up? >>

    image,,,STEVE
    toner loner
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    I think the discussion about lawsuits here are WAY unnecessary. This would be a private group for collectors and enthusiasts. Its purpose will not be to slander and libel anyone, nor interfere in anyone's contractual relationships. There is NO basis for concern IMHO. THe organization wouldn't have enough assets to get sued, and its members are just as likely to be sued as they would be as non-member individuals - which is to say, not likely at all.

    FORGET the legal nonsense and enjoy your coins !!!!

    Best,
    Sunnywood
  • sTONERsTONER Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭
    image
    toner loner
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    Ron

    With all due respect you didn't answer my question. Is this organization going to police its own, it's rather simple.

    -- here's your own statements --

    1. To assist collectors in identifying, acquiring and preserving, original toned coins, with an emphasis on those toned coins that are particularly eye appealing

    3. To provide a means for collectors who are interested in acquiring original toned Coins to interact with dealers and other collectors who have toned coins for sale.

    5. To assist and provide research as to the nature and characteristics of original toned coins, including the different sources of toning, the toning process itself and the variations in toning characteristics.

    7. To facilitate the exchange of information among dealers and collectors regarding the above enumerated aspects of originally toned coins so as to enhance the collecting and study of originally toned Coins.

    This is a work in process, so your thoughts, suggestions and comments will be appreciated.

    Apparently not since my thoughts suggestions and comments haven't exactly been welcomed by the founders of this organization.

    By the way, what's the definition of originally toned coins? Anything that makes it into a slab? There are coins posted here everyday that are questionable/AT and are in PCGS and/or NGC slabs. Is it okay to trade in the mistakes of the grading companies? Perhaps I am asking to much for this group to be proactive with protecting the marketplace. Fair enough, but, why not require its members not to do any more harm than is already being caused by these coins. If PCGS or NGC won't buy them back -- that's their call. But if your own Mission Statement refers to original coins, then why not require your members to agree not to sell known AT coins.

    Is it really that hard to understand?????????

    Michael

  • USAROKUSAROK Posts: 887 ✭✭✭
    FrattLaw - to police it's membership implies that someone decides a coin a member sells is AT and that some type of sanction be imposed on the member. If the TPG services and members of this board often have trouble deciding what is AT and what is NT, how is this detirmination to be made concerning a member of the TCCS and who makes that decision?

    Edited to add: I'm with those who want the TCCS to be an organization for sharing a common interest with our fellow collectors not a watchdog organization.
  • islemanguislemangu Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭
    how is this detirmination to be made concerning a member of the TCCS and who makes that decision?

    maybe a vote...Ross P. may back this toning organization if it can help prove his old electronic town hall platformsimage
    YCCTidewater.com


  • << <i>Not looking for an argument but I find this comment interesting. I too am not looking to argue but am curious.



    << <i>There are things I know about this business, TPGS and some dealers, but those secrets are kept confidential, as my role as an attorney. And I'm not here to name names >>



    What does this statement mean?

    Michael
  • scherscher Posts: 924
    Geesh..I am so with Sunnywood.."forget the nonsense and enjoy your coins" i get enough stress in many other parts of my life..lets have some fun..
    Bruce scher
  • puffpuff Posts: 1,475


    << <i>Geesh..I am so with Sunnywood.."forget the nonsense and enjoy your coins" i get enough stress in many other parts of my life..lets have some fun..
    Bruce scher >>



    image
  • MOC- You going to try and make it to the meeting? I hope to see you there.
    David Schweitz
  • TONEDDOLLARSTONEDDOLLARS Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭✭
    It is amazing to me how somethings so simple, can get to complicated so fast on these boards.image
  • Well, this is my 500th post, so I figured it might as well be on a subject that I really enjoy - so here's the updated info re our first meeting:

    The official (per the ANA) date and time of our inaugeral meeting is Thursday, August 19 at 11:30 am in room 323 of the David L. Lawrence Convention Center. We are listed in the Official ANA Schedule of Events which will be available at the convention. (I edited my original post to reflect this change, also updated to show the expanded list of founding members).

    ANA Schedule of events

    (see page 3 left hand column - Note the web listing is confusing - Thurday's event start on page 2 Rt column and continue on pg 3 in the left column)

    Someone (I think Mr. Eureka, perhaps in jest) suggested that we have a "contest" for the best toned coins at our 1st meeting, which is fine with me IF we can get a case for display purposes. My thought is that we would have the following categories:

    19th Century Toned Coins

    Cent, Nickel, Half Dime, Dime, Quarter, Half Dollar & Dollar

    20th Century Toned Coins:

    Cent, Nickel, Dime, Quarter, Half Dollar & Dollar

    I thought about doing this by series, but seems to me there would be too many categories, as it is, there's 11 categories above and that doesn't even include commeratives!

    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • I have a 1821 Bust half for the competition. image
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like a fun contest!
    Can anyone join?

    peacockcoins

  • baddick

    why not join the Society?
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>baddick why not join the Society? >>

    I thought you had to be a Dealer. I'm just a lowly collector (at best...).

    peacockcoins

  • anyone can join. The list above are the Founding members. It is a Toned COLLECTORS Society.

    We look forward to seeing you at the meeting.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,253 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Someone (I think Mr. Eureka, perhaps in jest) suggested that we have a "contest" for the best toned coins

    I wasn't joking. BTW, what about a Darkside category?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>anyone can join. The list above are the Founding members. It is a Toned COLLECTORS Society. We look forward to seeing you at the meeting. >>

    As long as you promise not to make fun of my coins.

    I'm overly sensitive to that. image

    peacockcoins

  • I never make fun of toned coins (unless they are Tonekillers image). Bring some of your cool vivid JFK's.
  • Here's a link with a downloadable Membership Application

    Thread Link with TCCS Membership Application

    As far as the "show-off your toners" contest, I've asked one of our dealer members to find a display case, and all we need now are some "nifty" prizes - (I was thinking maybe some "jeweluster" for the loosers imageimage , but I don't know what we can give to the winners image Any ideas? If it requires money, be ready to make your contribution! image )
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • TonedCoinTraderTonedCoinTrader Posts: 2,765 ✭✭✭
    Why not a Coin Trophie image
    A Toned one of course image

    Scott






    Toned Coins for sale @ tonedcointrader.com
  • TonekillerTonekiller Posts: 1,308 ✭✭
    Small cash entry cost ($1) and winner takes all via private vote? Ideas?




    FYI, GSAGuy will bring has personal coins........so we all know whos going to win. image



    TBT


    JB, you still have color envy? Not making up for anything are u? Little short on color in your case?

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