King of Siam Questions

coinguy89

First off, who is this King of Siam guy? Is it a guy, or a place? Its really been confusing me. Also while looking at the set in an article in Numismatic News, I noticed that all the coins in the set feature a King of Siam Label on the PCGS tags, except for the Capped Bust half dime, why is that?

Numismanic

<< <i>First off, who is this King of Siam guy? >>



King of Siam

PutTogether

The king of siam was a guy. The land formerly known as Siam is now called Thailand. He collected a LOT of coins, but it has also been said he wasn't a collector at heart, he just bought whatever on earth was real expensive.

The half dime isnt labeled because it cant be traced back to be part of the orignal set that was gifted to him by the US.

MrEureka

He collected a LOT of coins, but it has also been said he wasn't a collector at heart, he just bought whatever on earth was real expensive.

Actually, I think you're thinking of King Farouk. Not that I agree with your description of him.

ajaan

The King of Siam in this case is King Mongkut (Rama IV) of Siam (Thailand). I believe the US wanted a favor from him, can't remember what exactly it was, so they presented him with a specially made proof set.

Numismanic

<< <i>The King of Siam in this case is King Mongkut (Rama IV) of Siam (Thailand). >>



The set was presented to King Ph'ra Nang Klao (also known as Rama III) on April 6 of 1836 and remained in the royal family for generations.

XpipedreamR

In the article, the author describes some of the coins as "antedated originals," rather than restrikes. What does that mean?

tradedollarnut

In the article, the author describes some of the coins as "antedated originals," rather than restrikes. What does that mean?

The dollar and eagle were dated 1804, even tho they were struck in 1834.

XpipedreamR

Could you elaborate? Are they saying that because these coins were never struck in the year for which they are dated, they are not restrikes?

tradedollarnut

Novodel would be the technical term.

roadrunner

I believe that the King of Siam was Rama-Lamadingdong IV.

RR

Conder101

A restrike is a piece struck from the original dies at a later time or place than they were originally produced. They could be produced by the original producer or a third party. None of the pieces in the King of Siam set are restrikes.

A novodel is an officially created copy of an previously made coin from new dies. The 1804 eagle in the set is a novodel.

An antedated original would be an officially made piece of coin that never existed, with a date on it earlier than when the piece was actually produced. The 1804 dollar in the set is an antedated original. Another term for this would be a fantasy piece, as it purports to be something that never actually existed.

Coinguy89, the half dime and one of the quarter eagles was missing from the set when it surfaced in England in the mid 1950's. (There were two types of quater eagles that year.) Later in the 1990's when the set was being displayed a half dime from another source and a gold medal of Andrew Jackson were added to the set just so there wouldn't be any empty spaces in the holder. So the half dime isn't actually part of the King of Siam set.

The reason for the set was that the United States was just starting to step out onto the world stage as a nation and they were begining to establish diplomatic relations with other countries. Traditionally gifts would be exchanged between the nations during these negotiations. I'm not sure what gifts the US received but I know there were some finely crafted rifles and a jewel encrusted sword amoung other things. (The list can be found in Bowers book on The Dollars of 1804.) One thing the US was seeking was a treaty that would permit the use of port facilities in that part of the world for US ships.

Baley

stellar answer, Conder

coinguy89

Thanks Conder, another question about that gold medal. What is the purpose of that, what does it have to do with anything? Could explain alittle about that, if you know? You said it was to fill space but any other reason?

Numismanic

<< <i>A novodel is an officially created copy of an previously made coin from new dies. The 1804 eagle in the set is a novodel. >>



The 1804 $10 gold piece in the King of Siam set is believed to be one of six Proofs struck. This great rarity exhibits the "Plain 4" obverse that differentiates it from the circulation strikes of the same date. As is true of the 1804 silver dollar, the 1804 "Plain 4" $10 is not a restrike, but an antedated original.

Conder101

The gold medal is basicly just there to fill the hole. It's two advantages are that it pictures Andrew Jackson who was President during the time of the voyage of the Peac@ck and Edmund Roberts diplomatic mission and it happens to be the right size.

I know PCGS calls the 1804 eagle an anedated original but the slight difference in the font of the 4 from the coins actually struck in 1804 does not make it an "original". It is still intended to be a copy of the previous issue and is more properly termed a novodel. One reason they don't use that term is that it is not used much here in the US and is mostly found associated with
Russian coins. Russia had a long tradition of creating new strikings of old coins from new dies. Also an "Antedated original" has more marketing cashe than novodel. Calling something an original is good, calling it a copy is bad. Both when selling, or when slabbing so someone else can sell.

LAWMAN

Here's my problem with the Kin of Siam set. It seems to have disappeared from the late 19th century until around 1950 when a couple of old ladies presented it to a coin dealer in London, I think. They told him that they were descendants from the teacher in the "King and I" and that this was the original set prsented to the King way back when as we have all read and seen in numerous articles. Who ever checked out their story? What evidence is there that tells us that they weren't just two clever old ladies who had a good story to tell? I think there needs to be a whole lot more scholarship to back up a $10 million set. But, it's sure a nice story.

100proof1957

I thought is was

King OO EE OO LALA BING BANG Rama-Lamadingdong the IV

coinguy89

That kind of makes me mad that they would put those two coins in the set auction, they shouldn't go for a premium, because they're not part of the set, they shouldn't be being sold with them anyways.

P.S. Not a lash out at PCGS

Conder101

How do you feel about them removing the coins from the original presentation in which they were given to the King as part of our diplomatic gesture, in which they had safely resided for 150 years years or more?

Mark

If you want to read a lot of very interesting material about the King of Siam set, I second Conder's comment and strongly recommend Bower's book, The Rare Silver Dollars Dated 1804 and the Exciting Adventures of Edmund Roberts. It's a truly interesting book with probably equal amounts of history and numismatics.

Re the pedigree of the King of Siam set, Bowers agrees with Newman and Bressett who wrote in 1962, "No facts have been disclosed concerning how the set left Siam or where it has reposed over the years."

Mark

EagleEye

Here is Ira and Larry Goldbergs info on the set:
King of Siam Set

The set was recently all graded by NGC, the additional dime was PCGS (it and the medal were missing whan the set turned up in 1962) and would not cross to NGC, so they crossed it all over to PCGS. They were able to make another photo with the coin raw in the holder during the re-slabbing, this time including the extra dime and Jackson medal.