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Dealers who are "buying all coins"
Robgetty
Posts: 1,112
I just got back from the Baltimore show. I had a good time, met some board
members, and added a few things to my collection.
One thing that made me think was the number of dealers who had signs up
loudly proclaiming that they were "buying all coins", "no collection too big or too
small", "we need all of your coins", etc. Now, it so happened that I had a few
PCGS PR69DCAM modern commems and silver/gold/platinum bullion pieces that
I was interested in selling. (You know the story; selling off the stuff that no longer
interests you because I need to fund the current area of focus!
) All of the
dealers who I approached said that they were not interested in that material.
Now, I understand that dealers have certain areas that they focus in, etc., and
that they are going to evaluate their decisions to purchase based on the
expectation of being able to turn the coin around and make a profit. I'm fine
with that; I have other avenues to sell my coins.
My question is, "What is the effect on people who don't understand the process
and are going to the show to try to sell the old coins that they found in Grandpa's
attic?" If I had walked in off of the street without any coin collecting background,
I would have been pretty upset by all of the signs on dealer tables saying that
they were buying all coins, best prices paid, etc. and then having no one willing
to buy. Should dealers put up signs like that if they want to be selective about
what they buy? It is understood that a coin dealer is going to be buying and
selling by his/her presence, and by looking at what they have for sale you can
get a pretty good idea of what they are interested in. (Don't offfer your set of XF40
common date 3 cent nickels to a dealer who has AU chain cents and unc 1893-S
Morgans in their case!) By putting up a sign saying you want anything, you
establish an expectation in the eyes of inexperienced people who already think
that the junk they bought on the home shopping network is priceless.
Any thoughts?
members, and added a few things to my collection.
One thing that made me think was the number of dealers who had signs up
loudly proclaiming that they were "buying all coins", "no collection too big or too
small", "we need all of your coins", etc. Now, it so happened that I had a few
PCGS PR69DCAM modern commems and silver/gold/platinum bullion pieces that
I was interested in selling. (You know the story; selling off the stuff that no longer
interests you because I need to fund the current area of focus!
) All of the dealers who I approached said that they were not interested in that material.
Now, I understand that dealers have certain areas that they focus in, etc., and
that they are going to evaluate their decisions to purchase based on the
expectation of being able to turn the coin around and make a profit. I'm fine
with that; I have other avenues to sell my coins.
My question is, "What is the effect on people who don't understand the process
and are going to the show to try to sell the old coins that they found in Grandpa's
attic?" If I had walked in off of the street without any coin collecting background,
I would have been pretty upset by all of the signs on dealer tables saying that
they were buying all coins, best prices paid, etc. and then having no one willing
to buy. Should dealers put up signs like that if they want to be selective about
what they buy? It is understood that a coin dealer is going to be buying and
selling by his/her presence, and by looking at what they have for sale you can
get a pretty good idea of what they are interested in. (Don't offfer your set of XF40
common date 3 cent nickels to a dealer who has AU chain cents and unc 1893-S
Morgans in their case!) By putting up a sign saying you want anything, you
establish an expectation in the eyes of inexperienced people who already think
that the junk they bought on the home shopping network is priceless.
Any thoughts?
Robert Getty - Lifetime project to complete the finest collection of 1872 dated coins.
0
Comments
<< <i>Now, it so happened that I had a few PCGS PR69DCAM modern commems and silver/gold/platinum bullion pieces that I was interested in selling. >>
didn't you say you were at a coin show? so why would you expect coin dealers to be falling all over themselves wanting to buy what sounds like mostly plastic?
i don't blame the dealers in this scenario.
K S
But the "Buying All Coins" sign from a "dealer", is for the "off the street" people, not really for collectors.
But then it is fun to go through a show seeing what dealers would give you for your double eagle collection.
In one sense it's disappointing, in another sense it is very enlightening.
Act like you just got them from an estate don't know anything, etc.
Thats when you can find out who the honest better dealers are.
Now you know who to do business with.
crack out all those ultra-plastic/ultra-modern silver rounds, put 'em back in their original mint packaging where they belong, & i'm sure you'll be able to get 10 - 15% back of sheet. stop trying to stick dealers w/ stupid chunks of ultra-modern plastic!!!
K S
In other words, stop trying to get dealers to pay for the grading fees you wasted on chyt that grading fees should have never been wasted on.
The grading fee is NEVER included in the selling price of the coin. When people get this through their thick skulls, just maybe, they will stop wasting their money and everyone elses time on grading pieces that should never be graded.
Jim
I have found that some dealers who say they will buy anything are mostly looking for unknowledgeable owners to rip. Avoid them. By and large anyone who wants to sell should look for dealers who specialize in what you are selling.
As far as the public being offended goes, I am sure that most of these dealers will bid for everything, but at low prices. I don't think the uninformed seller would notice the rip.
There are some exceptions, but I do not approve of dealers who post huge BUYING-BUYING-BUYING signs at their table, but never buy from coin dealers. You will find that you will almost always get more for your coins and currency by selling to the dealer who does not resort to such sleazy advertising and has quality coins at resonable prices in his/her case.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
<< <i>"WE BUY IT ALL" usually has very, very fine print under it that reads: "We buy it all from little old ladies who don't know anything about coins. If you know what your coins are worth, please take them somewhere else." >>
Well, yes and no. They will "buy it all" at the right price. For some hot coins, it could mean Greysheet bid or even a bit more. For other coins, half of Greysheet bid if you're lucky.
If you have a piece that's in heavy demand, even someone who knows what their coins are worth can probably get a decent offer -- particularly if this dealer has customers who have want-listed that coin in that grade. Some of my nicer mint state certified Morgans, a couple of slabbed BU gold coins and *key date* XF and AU Indian and Lincoln cents might qualify here. These are moving, these are hot, these are in high demand and can resell quickly. That's the key here. If a dealer thinks they can quickly churn the coin for even a small profit, they will. But if they think there's little market, and they might have to sit on the coin for months before getting a nibble, they'll demand a much greater profit margin. It's that old tried and true retail strategy -- you can make up for lower margins if you have sufficient volume. And coins that are hot move quickly, allowing a dealer to increase volume.
And if you wanted to "sell everything" and if that everything included "hot" items like these and others, sure, they'd buy it all...but give you very little more than they would for the cherrypicked items alone.
So in reality, I guess it's a little deceptive, and a *lie* if they outright refuse to buy at any price. I understand the business economics of it completely, though, and perhaps they need to be a little more careful with their claims.
<< <i>the point is, this dude was trying to dump plasticized modern bullion crap, & is complaining because no dealer is stupid enough to pay for a bunch of overhyped, overpriced, overblown plastic garbage. it's a case where, like a 1982 washington half is worth 5 bucks, but nutty collectors get 'em in slabs & suddenly think dealers should pay 30 bucks for 'em.
crack out all those ultra-plastic/ultra-modern silver rounds, put 'em back in their original mint packaging where they belong, & i'm sure you'll be able to get 10 - 15% back of sheet. stop trying to stick dealers w/ stupid chunks of ultra-modern plastic!!!
K S >>
No. The point is that the market for almost all modern coins is very thin. There are relatively few
people who have discovered that these coins are a lot of fun to collect and are often quite scarce.
Dealers don't pay much attention to coins they don't know or markets they don't understand. In
point of fact, as others have said in this thread the signs don't really mean that the dealers wish
to buy all coins from all sellers. They are seeking anything cheap and can always pay much more
for coins they specialize in. Collectors will always have to sell esoteric coins to specialists. How ironic
that collecting almost any coins made in the last half of a century is a small niche market.
any collectible coin made anywhere, anytime during the latter half of the 20th century is
soaring in value. While it may well be true that the increases are nominal, the percentage
increases are virtually unprecedented. Despite the huge and continuing gains the rare
moderns still sell for a small fraction of a comparably rare older coin. But those who believe
that the modern markets are some sort of aberration or that those in these markets are only
in it for profits are simply not looking at the coins or studying the markets.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I dont see how you can say that the modern market is the hottest thing out there right now?
Perhaps on the selling end, but not on buy back and that is exactly the point that Rob is making I think... in a very round about matter.
What DEALERS are buying this stuff? I cant get ANY dealers to even make an offer on the Proof cameo franklins that my dad bought through R&I. Tomaska wont even return my emails or phone calls. Old wondercoin (Mitch) on here didnt even make a sight unseen offer?????????????????
Explain this. Please!!!!!!!!!!! And then explain how the modern market is so hot!!!!
I am not trying to get into a flame war. Just want some info. You tell me what dealers are buying this stuff and selling it for a 25% markup with a buyback....
If you can, let me know...
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
now, you might not like the offer! If you offered me a bunch of slabbed bullion coins and modern commems, you would not like my offer very much, but I'd make you an offer.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
and there will not be a large number of buyers for the coin in a slab. Even those who specialize
in such markets often will prefer to find such coins raw and slab them themselves. If they do buy
one already slabbed their ability to "make" one themselves will affect what they are willing to pay.
To a greater or lesser extent this will apply to most moderns since even most of the rarities can be
found raw if one is willing to put in the time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears. If it were only a specific
modern commem being bashed then there would be little need to comment, but look again at the
statement. It refers to moderns which by all definitions includes coins minted between 1965 and 1998
and it simply is not true. Even mainstream dealers will likely be interested in buying coins like a '69 DDO
cent, '75 No-S dime or a roll of '83 quarters. Most would at least make an offer on proof and mint sets
or complete sets of coins and coins in government packaging. But saying that slabbing moderns is some
sort of fools game is ignoring the fact that there are larger numbers of people collecting these coins now,
it's ignoring the fact that many people don't have the facility to search out even the most common commems
on their own, and it's ignoring the fact that there are large numbers of these coins soaring by any measure.
There are many coins like a 1957 Greek 1D that listed for very nominal amounts back in the mid-'70s and now
are avidly sought for well over $50. There are coins like a choice '83 quarter that wholesales for a mere $24
but will prove virtually impossible to find for sale at any price. And this is a coin that usually lists for less than
its wholesale price!
There are still many moderns which sell for very little money but are almost impossible to locate. Those who
are collecting the coins are having fun chasing them down and continually raising their bids to acquire the more
elusive issues. This process is hardly complete especially when one considers that there are far more modern
collectors than old timers both here and abroad now days. So long as people are working on these collections
there will continue to be increasing demand for the coins. And it would seem a given that they'll continue working the collections as long as they're having fun.
So one can slam moderns and collectors on the basis of a single failed transaction if they wish but remember that it could have just as easily been any other coin for which the dealer knew he couldn't make a viable offer.
If it's replica bullion stuff, you are very likely SOL, there isn't any market (probably in a 100 years or so).
If it's painted, decaled, gold or silver plated replica stuff, it's pretty much all worthless at present.
Your best bet is to try and sell it on Ebay.
But don't get your expectations too high.
Commemoratives, only certain ones look to be of interest at the moment. it could change in the future.
Normally proofs and commemoratives go down in value right after you buy them from the mint. it takes a number
of years for the price to rise. Now then some commemoratives went up in value or were very popular. The
Buffalo dollar is one example.
If it's old circulated US coins, dealers aren't all that interested, they already likely have bins full at home anyway.
If it's world coins, only the gold or silver is of interest, and not much there even then.
Greg
am i right?
the real issue here isn't a problem w/ dealers who claim to "buy all coins", it's with foolish collectors who've paid absurd prices for chunks of plastic, & think they should be able to recoup their investment. i think your real problem is that you got caught up in plastic hype & paid TOO MUCH for your ultra moderns.
most dealers realize full well that collectors pay way too much for their ultramoderns in plastic. they're not going to insult you w/ their offers.
K S
bingo!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I think a dealer with a sign saying "buying all coins" should make an offer on ALL coins.
now, you might not like the offer! If you offered me a bunch of slabbed bullion coins and modern commems, you would not like my offer very much, but I'd make you an offer. >>
I don't know why this thread needed to turn into a anti-plastic,modern thread.
The coin shop nearest me will buy all coins. I could bring a state quarter from my pocket and he will offer to buy it for a quarter but he will buy it.
Don't me wrong the plactic does not increase the value of the coin inside per say but if you are going to advertise that you buy all coins then you should make an offer on all coins even if it's face or melt value.
<< <i>ok , so, give us some examples of what you are asking for your ultramodern plastic. say for example, a ms-69 wash. half in pcgs plastic, what would you ask for it? me, i'd ask a dealer 5 bucks for it, because that's all it's worth. i also wouldn't pay more then 6 bucks, again regardless of what plastic co. graded it. the point is, i'll be you were expecting 20 or 25 bucks, cuz you probably paid 30.
am i right?
the real issue here isn't a problem w/ dealers who claim to "buy all coins", it's with foolish collectors who've paid absurd prices for chunks of plastic, & think they should be able to recoup their investment. i think your real problem is that you got caught up in plastic hype & paid TOO MUCH for your ultra moderns.
most dealers realize full well that collectors pay way too much for their ultramoderns in plastic. they're not going to insult you w/ their offers.
K S >>
Dorkkarl; If this is directed at me then I currently own only a single slab and I did pay way
to much for it. It's a very common '70-D DDR dime in MS-60. It may well be the ugliest unc
in existence being the typical poor strike from extremely worn dies. Despite this the coin is
probably scarcer in unc than the '09-S vdb is in all grades. Does this make it valuable or that
it should be valuable? By no means. There is scant demand for the coin and the demand that
does exist is easily satisfied by nice choice examples. Even in gem this coin isn't really rare,
but since when is rarity the only factor in a coin's desirability or collectibility? Why shouldn't a
collector put together a set of clad dimes or anything else which catches his fancy? If he does
attempt such a set he might want to add this coin and he'll either have to search for it himself
or find one and pay a price based on supply and demand. That dealers buy some moderns
based on factors other than supply and demand is irrelevant to the value of this or any other
coin.
So why did I buy the ugliest example of this coin? Simply because it's the only example I've seen
which didn't obviously come from a mint set. I don't really know that this makes the coin rare, but
it's rare to me so I was willing to overpay a little for the "plastic".
Just turned this thread from a Modern Bash to a Dealer Bash......
Perhaps on the selling end, but not on buy back and that is exactly the point that Rob is making I think... in a very round about matter.
Anaconda a while back said to get a real education on how much your coins are worth just walk the floor of a major coin show, 100+ tables, and ask dealers to make offers. It won't take but a stop at 5-6 tables to get an idea if your coins have "liquidity" and if they do how desirable they are.
At every show I attend I hear collectors trying to sell their state quarters and I have yet to over hear a dealer say yes he/she is interested in buying them. You can substitute state quarters for common modern slabs, slabbed bullion, modern commems, etc.
oh btw, none of my comments is directed at anyone in particular. really, i hope newbies stumble on this thread & are able to get out some glimmer of advice - buy your common crap RAW.
K S
<< <i>I dont see how you can say that the modern market is the hottest thing out there right now?
Perhaps on the selling end, but not on buy back and that is exactly the point that Rob is making I think... in a very round about matter.
Anaconda a while back said to get a real education on how much your coins are worth just walk the floor of a major coin show, 100+ tables, and ask dealers to make offers. It won't take but a stop at 5-6 tables to get an idea if your coins have "liquidity" and if they do how desirable they are.
At every show I attend I hear collectors trying to sell their state quarters and I have yet to over hear a dealer say yes he/she is interested in buying them. You can substitute state quarters for common modern slabs, slabbed bullion, modern commems, etc. >>
This has always been sound advice to all collectors but somehow seems to rarely be
given. If you really want to protect any new collectors from making a long series of
costly mistakes then tell him to sell a coin on occasion to guage their true value on the
market. Instead there are some who seem to believe all moderns are a mistake and those
who concentrate on the same coins they collect are immune from making mistakes. Go fig-
ure!
Most modern collectors are doing extremely well financially. Oh sure, there are investors
and speculators who may have an exposure to loss or have already taken significant loses,
but there are probably very few collectors to whom this applies unless they happened to
have concentrated in one of the areas which has been hit in the last couple years. Many
modern collectors are in these markets and do know what their coins are worth and it's
substantially more than they paid.
Again though. There are lots of real collectors in this field and their intention does not con-
sist merely of making money.
<< <i>yeah, but can you really blame the dealers??? >>
I don't blame the dealers for not wanting to buy the stuff. They know their specialty and what their customers want. They'll aggressively buy what they know their existing customers want. They may reluctantly buy other decent numismatic material, although they may pay a bit less for the same amount of value. And then there is junk that they can't easily turn around and resell for a fair profit, or items for which they already *have* enough inventory.
No, I don't blame the dealers for not wanting to buy some coins.
But if you say you're going to buy all coins -- that being the assumption that led to this thread -- then yes, you'd better be prepared to buy them. Even if you give a $5 offer on a coin that cost $20 to slab -- offer $5, tell them you can't sell this for more than $10 (if even that), and use it as an opportunity to educate more people about the coin market and how it works. At a very busy table at a major show, yes, you may not have much time for it, but if that's the case you shouldn't be saying you want to buy all coins -- you should be showing potential sellers what you *need* and are willing to pay the best prices on -- because those are probably the things you can move quickly and already have customers lining up to buy once you get them in stock.
All of which tells me it's probably a mistake to say you'll buy "all" coins. Either you'd be stuck with coins you don't want or else you have to lose goodwill by refusing to honor your sign.
<< <i>yeah, but can you really blame the dealers??? how many times do you see a collector pay an unwarranted premium for a coin, say a ms-65 fb common-date merc, then expect a dealer to give him full greysheet, or whatever it is they price by? common coins are common coins, it doesn't matter what plastic they're in, but too many collector delude themselves into thinking that since it's stuck in plastic, it's worth "more". i submit to you that becuase they've been so bombarded by these misguided collectors, dealers by policy will routinely ignore such offers, knowning that the collector's expecting too much for his 90% silver. >>
I agree with you. I don't blame the dealers at all. I know what most of them go through day in and day out. It's just that if one is going to hang a sign saying "buying all coins" at a show and don't even give the potential seller a chance to speak, maybe they should rethink having that sign up there which invites so many "misguided sellers" to their table.
Oh I buy the Common Colored Mercs Raw also. Happy Karl ?
This is a Good Thread for Newbies and maybe some Seasoned Collectors from what I have seen.
Ken
When I arrived, they had a greeter (read screener) separating the sheep from the flock. I was given a room number and a name of "Mr. So and So". Several alarms went off in my head then. First, I didn't need to be separated from the flock - as I didn't go there to be fleeced. Secondly, when a buyer is named "Mr." anything, I know somebody is about to get screwed - ain't for sure to be the buyer. This national "dealer" rented the whole floor to the hotel for this "meet and rip" buying function. What I saw and overheard there mad me sick to my stomach (they had all the doors open to all their rooms where they were "working" prospective sellers. I was allowed to cool my heals until "Mr." came in to honor me with his presence. While waiting for "Mr.", I could overhear several conversations going on in numerous rooms. The buyers were looking to fleece sheep - by the conversations I heard from the buyers to the prospective sellers. BTW, the prospective sellers I heard discussing their coins with their buyers, showed them to be somewhat ignorant on coins and their value. No surprise there.
When "Mr." finally arrived in the room they had me cooling in, he took one look at my 6 PGCS boxes and asked me what I had - while stating that they don't buy many third party graded coins. I told him what I had and opened the boxes for him to take a look at the coins. Asked the price I was looking for, I stated that I would take an amount UNDER fair market value as I wanted to move many coins. Long story short, they refused to even look at any of my coins. Why? I think that after talking to me for a few minutes, they discovered that I knew what the true market value of my coins was (even though I was willing to sell for well under that amount), they refused to look at even one single coin. Why? My theory is that they are just looking to rip unsuspecting and unknowledgeable people on their coins. What I overheard from other rooms and based on my direct experience, they were looking to buy coins for a fraction of their true worth from unsuspecting people.
Well, since then, whenever I read that a dealer is "Buying ALL coins", I tuck my wallet in extra tight, and plan on not doing ANY business with them. Just my 7 cents worth. Your mileage may vary.
<< <i>
oh btw, none of my comments is directed at anyone in particular. really, i hope newbies stumble on this thread & are able to get out some glimmer of advice - buy your common crap RAW.
K S >>
This is generally sound advice no matter how it's phrased, but don't just assume that
all modern coins can be found raw just because there were millions minted and dealers
"have tons of this stuff".
<< <i>When "Mr." finally arrived in the room they had me cooling in, he took one look at my 6 PGCS boxes and asked me what I had - while stating that they don't buy many third party graded coins. I told him what I had and opened the boxes for him to take a look at the coins. Asked the price I was looking for, I stated that I would take an amount UNDER fair market value as I wanted to move many coins. Long story short, they refused to even look at any of my coins. Why? I think that after talking to me for a few minutes, they discovered that I knew what the true market value of my coins was (even though I was willing to sell for well under that amount), they refused to look at even one single coin. Why? My theory is that they are just looking to rip unsuspecting and unknowledgeable people on their coins. What I overheard from other rooms and based on my direct experience, they were looking to buy coins for a fraction of their true worth from unsuspecting people. >>
Sad and unsurprising. It gives honest and ethical dealers a kick in the gut.
When a coin is raw, it's easier to look at an MS-63 coin, tell an unknowing seller it's AU, pay a fraction of AU money for it, and then sell it as a 65 (or slab it as a 63). When you being it in slabbed as a PCGS/NGC/ANACS 63, it's hard to tell someone they have an AU coin. And hard to sell as a 65 (unless you crack it out and subscribe to the Greater Fool Theory).
That's the unscrupulous dealers, of course; certainly many don't fit in that category. But the ones that do give coin dealers a bad rep, a reputation that many dealers don't deserve, and that's unfortunate.
because dorkkarl's back?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Of course, they will "relieve" you of those coins if you really insist...
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
~I'm ready, I'm ready~
<< <i>A coin dealer is NEVER interested in buying your coins. No matter what you have to sell, it's never what they're really interested in acquiring.
Of course, they will "relieve" you of those coins if you really insist... >>
Fortunate for me in my deal:
1. I didn't "have" to sell, I just wanted to.
2. I knew what my coins were really worth, and was willing to accept an amount lower than that.
3. I'm no fool. This fact alone killed any chance I had at making a deal (thankfully).
4. They wouldn't even "look" at a single coin I hauled over there for them to look at. Obviously, my "profile" (as a seller), clued them into the fact that they wouldn't be able to "rip" my coins. They could have bought them at a very favorable price to be sure, but they weren't willing to even go that far. They were just there to shear the sheep, and they didn't appear to make any bones about that. At least, that’s how it felt to me.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
to buy modern commem's, or slabbed bullion, or some of the lincolns,
buffalo nickels, mercs, or franklins that I had to offer. My main thought
was that putting those signs up were deceptive to the "guy who walks
in off the street", and makes me think that they are targeting people
who don't know what their coins are worth.
Dorkkarl,
Just so you know, the only reason that I have been buying more expensive
coins in slabs is that I don't get many chances to buy coins face to face; I
usually have to buy over Ebay, etc. so I feel safer buying a PCGS or NGC
slab than a raw coin. (I've been burned too many times.) Heck, most of my
German/Prussian 1872 gold was bought within $5 of melt value, even in
a NGC MS64 slab. So I don't feel like I am paying dramatic premiums for
"the plastic". If you want to bash on a segment of coins, fine; just please
don't associate me with your targets. Thank you.
<< <i>don't know why this thread needed to turn into a anti-plastic,modern thread
<< <i> nothing against pcgs moderns, it's pcgs COMMONS that are getting folks all riled up.
<< <i>Dorkkarl,
Just so you know, the only reason that I have been buying more expensive coins in slabs is that I don't get many chances to buy coins face to face; I usually have to buy over Ebay, etc. so I feel safer buying a PCGS or NGC slab than a raw coin. (I've been burned too many times.) Heck, most of my German/Prussian 1872 gold was bought within $5 of melt value, even in a NGC MS64 slab. So I don't feel like I am paying dramatic premiums for "the plastic". If you want to bash on a segment of coins, fine; just please don't associate me with your targets. Thank you. >>
hey robgetty, what you said in your example was "Now, it so happened that I had a few PCGS PR69DCAM modern commems and silver/gold/platinum bullion pieces that
I was interested in selling. " way different then a 1872 gold german/prussian coin!
K S