I've read some not very nice things on these boards about "Christmas Rack Packs." This one, with a BIN of $1799, has a Koufax rookie showing on top. Is the seller's tale correct about how these packs came to be?
JR According to Mark Murphy, the oldest racks he knows of are from 1960 which were cellos in a rack; traditional racks with cards in pockets started in 1968. I believe Murphy stated in his sale of these "Christmas Racks" that they were repacks - if on the up and up, by a vendor as opposed to being the design of a scammer. The one you are talking about - who knows? This is just my take - never did a lot of research on racks. Mike
<< <i>Many people have opened these to find Aaron( I see my auction for a 1955 Aaron on top rack,Snider, Mantle , Robinson, Williams and the like. >>
If he can find a Mantle in a lot of 55T's, then it is truly a Christmas in July!
<< <i>If he can find a Mantle in a lot of 55T's, then it is truly a Christmas in July! >>
I'd put it this way...if the buyer finds a '55T Mantle in the stack, it's definitely the work of a scam artist!
I remember reading about the same type of "repacking" done with '51 and '52 Topps cards. Collectors have reported seeing a complete "deck" of '51 Red Backs and '52 Topps cards even into the mid-1950s. Now I need to go back through my reference materials to see where that was written...
Chris Mark Murphy purchased from a lady a bunch of 52T 8 pack cellos a while back - it is believed that they were repacked the next year or so to get the store owners to buy them and dump them on kids at a discount. Mike
The xmas racks were found by Murphy a couple of years ago (maybe 3). They are not scams by any means, but are not true legit racks from those years. When Mark purchased them he was just as excited about them as his potential buyers. They caused quite a stir in the hobby. After about 2 months and a lot of research which entailed talking to some old Topps employees, the story came out. A toy/retailer had been purchasing left over inventory from Topps and creating the rack packs with Topps permission. Most of the packaging was done years after the cards were first introduced to the market. That is why most cards show some wear. They are legit cards packaged for the most part in the early 60s. The machinery used in those days was not very high tech, and most cards show some corner wear or side damage. The wear and tear is minimal thru most racks as I have opened several. The packager also manipulated his packaging by placing stars on top or backs of the packs. Many packs show stars and this has been attributed to the packager trying to sell stock easier. Because of the nature of the independent packager, GAI will not grade these racks. Still, you can get some sweet cards and highly collectable pieces. Hopes this helps.
<< <i>Chris Mark Murphy purchased from a lady a bunch of 52T 8 pack cellos a while back - it is believed that they were repacked the next year or so to get the store owners to buy them and dump them on kids at a discount. Mike >>
Mike,
I'm sure you've read the hobby legend about the hundreds of Topps 1952 Hi # cases being dropped into the Atlantic. That was done around 1960, because Topps had been unable to sell the cards. They had been attempting to sell them to third parties specifically for that purpose...By 1960, they needed the warehouse space and the excess cards had to go.
In the early 1960s there was a New York City card dealer who had a sizeable stock of '52 Topps including high numbers. In Gordon Taylor's Card Comments hobby paper/magazine, he advertised the high number cards at 50 cents apiece (yes, the Mantle too!), and I'm assuming he got some of his stock directly from Brooklyn-based Topps.
Too bad nobody had the foresight to know that each of those cards would become so expensive. By 1960, I'm sure that Topps would have let those cases go for a song if they were planning on dumping them.
<< If he can find a Mantle in a lot of 55T's, then it is truly a Christmas in July! >>
<<I'd put it this way...if the buyer finds a '55T Mantle in the stack, it's definitely the work of a scam artist!>>
If there is a Mantle in that rack then you have definately been had seeing how there was no '55 Topps Mantle (or '54 for that matter). Topps skipped those two years due to contract problems so if you're thinking about buying hoping to get a Mantle, I hate to break your heart. I'd ask for a larger scan to get an idea of where the cards might grade out. If they look like they might grade an 8 NQ or better, it might be worth a closer look.
Scott
Registry Sets: T-205 Gold PSA 4 & up 1967 Topps BB PSA 8 & up 1975 Topps BB PSA 9 & up 1959 Topps FB PSA 8 & up 1976 Topps FB PSA 9 & up 1981 Topps FB PSA 10 1976-77 Topps BK PSA 9 & up 1988-89 Fleer BK PSA 10 3,000 Hit Club RC PSA 5 & Up
<< <i><<I'd put it this way...if the buyer finds a '55T Mantle in the stack, it's definitely the work of a scam artist!>>
If there is a Mantle in that rack then you have definately been had seeing how there was no '55 Topps Mantle (or '54 for that matter). >>
I realize that...that's why I said it was a certainty it was a scam if Mantle was in there. Guess I should have just come right out and said it, instead of assuming that the readers of this board would surely know that there was no Mantle in the '54 and '55 Topps sets.
I think just a little sarcasm going on there. A '55 Topps Mantle would be a miracle, not a scam. The seller obviously doesn't know his '55s, that's one of the things that made me suspicious. Anyway, even if legitimately repackaged in the 1960s and not tampered with since, I wouldn't pay that kind of money on a long-distance scan and a description of "generally Ex-Mint." Wouldn't you know, the Koufax and any other stars would be Ex or less, and the only NM ones would be high-pop commons.
The unopened vintage market is a weird animal. For some reason, buyer's are willing to pay outrageous sums for unopened material from the 50s and 60s. It used to be a real dangerous place. Lots of reseals. Especially with the older wax. Hard to tell if the guy was trying to scam if he was any good. The cellos are harder, but many out there. I submitted over 100 cellos to GAI from the 50s and 60s last year and 35% came back phoney. Now that I know what to look for, I know that they were correct in their assessment. GAI changed the game. A third party legit stamp is accepted around the country as an "athentic unopened" cello or wax.
The Xmas packs are real. Originally they went for 2-3 times what they are selling for now as most people know the story. But still an exciting piece with stud cards. But the $ is in unopened. If you pop the bad boy, you rarely get back the money. But...unopened is still one of ther most solid areas out there. Just follow the unopened cellos and wax that are graded by GAI. Sweet stuff.
<< <i>Too bad nobody had the foresight to know that each of those cards would become so expensive. By 1960, I'm sure that Topps would have let those cases go for a song if they were planning on dumping them. >>
Chris Yes, I'm an idiot. Back in the early 80's Mr. Mint was selling high grade hi #52T's at what now would be a disgusting bargain - I asked my wife about the Mantle (I want to say it was 2 grand) which was described as Mint and she told me to go get my head examined! Needless to say that was a veto.
<< <i>I think just a little sarcasm going on there >>
JR My statement about Christmas in July was most definitely sarcasm - all vintage collectors would've gotten the jab. thanx guys your friend Mike
My favorite one of these was on ebay a couple years ago. There was a 1962 pack with Roger Maris and Tracy Stallard on the front, Stallard with his beleaguered, capless look staring right at Maris in the next cell. Whoever put those packs together had a sense of history and humor.
WANTED: 2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25 2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9 Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Comments
According to Mark Murphy, the oldest racks he knows of are from 1960 which were cellos in a rack; traditional racks with cards in pockets started in 1968. I believe Murphy stated in his sale of these "Christmas Racks" that they were repacks - if on the up and up, by a vendor as opposed to being the design of a scammer. The one you are talking about - who knows?
This is just my take - never did a lot of research on racks.
Mike
<< <i>Many people have opened these to find Aaron( I see my auction for a 1955 Aaron on top rack,Snider, Mantle , Robinson, Williams and the like. >>
If he can find a Mantle in a lot of 55T's, then it is truly a Christmas in July!
<< <i>If he can find a Mantle in a lot of 55T's, then it is truly a Christmas in July! >>
I'd put it this way...if the buyer finds a '55T Mantle in the stack, it's definitely the work of a scam artist!
I remember reading about the same type of "repacking" done with '51 and '52 Topps cards. Collectors have reported seeing a complete "deck" of '51 Red Backs and '52 Topps cards even into the mid-1950s. Now I need to go back through my reference materials to see where that was written...
Vintage Cards Specialist/Hobby Historian
Vintage Baseball Cards website:
http://www.obaks.com/vintagebaseballcards/index.html
Mark Murphy purchased from a lady a bunch of 52T 8 pack cellos a while back - it is believed that they were repacked the next year or so to get the store owners to buy them and dump them on kids at a discount.
Mike
<< <i>Chris
Mark Murphy purchased from a lady a bunch of 52T 8 pack cellos a while back - it is believed that they were repacked the next year or so to get the store owners to buy them and dump them on kids at a discount.
Mike >>
Mike,
I'm sure you've read the hobby legend about the hundreds of Topps 1952 Hi # cases being dropped into the Atlantic. That was done around 1960, because Topps had been unable to sell the cards. They had been attempting to sell them to third parties specifically for that purpose...By 1960, they needed the warehouse space and the excess cards had to go.
In the early 1960s there was a New York City card dealer who had a sizeable stock of '52 Topps including high numbers. In Gordon Taylor's Card Comments hobby paper/magazine, he advertised the high number cards at 50 cents apiece (yes, the Mantle too!), and I'm assuming he got some of his stock directly from Brooklyn-based Topps.
Too bad nobody had the foresight to know that each of those cards would become so expensive. By 1960, I'm sure that Topps would have let those cases go for a song if they were planning on dumping them.
Vintage Cards Specialist/Hobby Historian
Vintage Baseball Cards website:
http://www.obaks.com/vintagebaseballcards/index.html
<<I'd put it this way...if the buyer finds a '55T Mantle in the stack, it's definitely the work of a scam artist!>>
If there is a Mantle in that rack then you have definately been had seeing how there was no '55 Topps Mantle (or '54 for that matter).
Scott
T-205 Gold PSA 4 & up
1967 Topps BB PSA 8 & up
1975 Topps BB PSA 9 & up
1959 Topps FB PSA 8 & up
1976 Topps FB PSA 9 & up
1981 Topps FB PSA 10
1976-77 Topps BK PSA 9 & up
1988-89 Fleer BK PSA 10
3,000 Hit Club RC PSA 5 & Up
My Sets
<< <i><<I'd put it this way...if the buyer finds a '55T Mantle in the stack, it's definitely the work of a scam artist!>>
If there is a Mantle in that rack then you have definately been had seeing how there was no '55 Topps Mantle (or '54 for that matter).
I realize that...that's why I said it was a certainty it was a scam if Mantle was in there. Guess I should have just come right out and said it, instead of assuming that the readers of this board would surely know that there was no Mantle in the '54 and '55 Topps sets.
Vintage Cards Specialist/Hobby Historian
Vintage Baseball Cards website:
http://www.obaks.com/vintagebaseballcards/index.html
The Xmas packs are real. Originally they went for 2-3 times what they are selling for now as most people know the story. But still an exciting piece with stud cards. But the $ is in unopened. If you pop the bad boy, you rarely get back the money. But...unopened is still one of ther most solid areas out there. Just follow the unopened cellos and wax that are graded by GAI. Sweet stuff.
<< <i>Too bad nobody had the foresight to know that each of those cards would become so expensive. By 1960, I'm sure that Topps would have let those cases go for a song if they were planning on dumping them. >>
Chris
Yes, I'm an idiot. Back in the early 80's Mr. Mint was selling high grade hi #52T's at what now would be a disgusting bargain - I asked my wife about the Mantle (I want to say it was 2 grand) which was described as Mint and she told me to go get my head examined! Needless to say that was a veto.
<< <i>I think just a little sarcasm going on there >>
JR
My statement about Christmas in July was most definitely sarcasm - all vintage collectors would've gotten the jab.
thanx guys
your friend
Mike
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay