WHO WOULD BUY A CARD GRADED BY A COMPANY THAT WILL NOT CHARGE YOU UNLESS YOU APPROVE OF THE GRADE?
highend
Posts: 534 ✭
as an exclusive PSA submitter/buyer i pay little attention to the SGC or GAI companies. i recently read that GAI will not charge the submitter if a grade doesn't meet the expected grade. i didn't think that could be right...but it is.
i was under the impression that they wouldn't HOLDER the card if you didn't get the desired grade, i never knew they wouldn't CHARGE you.
why would anyone buy a GAI card with this glaring conflict of interest?
i was under the impression that they wouldn't HOLDER the card if you didn't get the desired grade, i never knew they wouldn't CHARGE you.
why would anyone buy a GAI card with this glaring conflict of interest?
0
Comments
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
i apologize to anyone i may have offended by my use of caps....
I will guess again and say they have initial review of corners, centering, etc. and say well it is at least a 9. If I wanted at least an 9 they continue. If they see small corner dink off center etc. that would make it an 8 they stop and send it back. Charging me the initial "review" fee and I do not get charged for the slabing process.
Sounds ok to me if the company is reliable.
Wrong! Where does it say that? Under their pre-grade service, it's $5.00 to pre-grade (a sticker grade on the cardsaver) without encapsulating. If you wanted/expected a 9.5 and it got a 9, it's $5. If you want it encapsulated after that, it's $3 more. Their straight encapsulation regardless of what you want is $8 flat. How would they make money if they examined your card for free? I just came back from a show an hour ago and picked up my 89 GAI cards.
I don't know about SGC. I use PSA & GAI exclusively right now, but sent in 13 cards to SGC 2 weeks ago because they had a $5 July special (80 - present) with no limit or quantity required for 20 business days.
to answer your question i have had instances when i wasn't happy with a grade , usually i see why the grade was assigned after the fact and if not... i'll send it in again....thanks
<< <i>i apologize to anyone i may have offended by my use of caps.... >>
Highend
I thought you were only trying to make a point - I personally, like many, wouldn't and shouldn't be offended. Just my opinion.
This is a very touchy subject and probably needs a lot of thought, research and discussion.
Having said this I agree with Hojo that some investigation is required.
GAI, and this is a guess, is just trying to increase their submissions and are employing an Ad technique that they hope will work - I don't think they would want to hurt their reputation - I wonder how much field testing they do before they make a decision to proceed with a campaign.
If properly implemented, the concept has some merit, IMO, and would take a lot of the anxiety out of the submission process for many people.
Isn't Mike Baker the chief grader? Anyone know him? I think a call might help. Did I recall properly that some have alluded to the fact that GAI is hard to get in touch with? Just questions - not indictments or criticisms.
Key point: PSA will probably only stay on their toes as long as there is healthy competition.
Stone
i don't know mike baker and he is respected within the hobby but as part of the old PSA regime his legacy is in the overgraded cards with serial #'s begining with zero. from the GAI cards i've held in hand it seems to be the same old song. despite all the knocks against joe orlando it's tough to argue that the standards have not improved under his watch. thanks again for much appreciated and objective opinion....jim
OK, I'm thinking of a number.....the number is "9"..... Oh, you're thinking "8".....
Well, take another look at those corners.... here's another three bucks....how does "9" sound now?
Is this any way to run a grading company?
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
--1990-to-Present Prescreen Special:
Send in at least 20 cards issued from 1990 to 2003. You specify minimum grade on the invoice (no higher than 96). SGC will encapsulate cards which meet your minimum grade or higher, only.
Cards that meet minimum grade are subject to the tier fee you select.
The cards that do not meet the minimum grade will be returned to you unencapsulated,
and you will be charged a prescreen fee of only $2 per card. Save on grading fees for cards that do not meet your minimum grade! Questions on bulk-deals or quantities of cards pre-1990, call Steve Hrusovsky at 1-800-742-9212, or email shrusovsky@sgccard.com.--
graders do not see an invoice or do the slabbing, they grade cards. they assign their grade for the card, give them to the slabber, who looks then at the invoice, and slabs what he is told to. i don't really see how this can be a 'flawed' system. BGS,GAI,and SGC seem to all do this. if i thought a card was a 9, and turns out that it wasn't i would be happier paying a small fee, instead of the grading fee and having a slabbed card i can't do nothing with, as AKNOT said.
At any rate, my point is, I don't think they collude in any way to try and make extra money by giving a little bit better grade. PSA does the exact same thing on crossovers. GAI, SGC and BGS all over a pregrade service, just because PSA doesn't, doesn't mean that its some kind of conspiracy.
Just my .02
Edited to say: that if Stever is in fact selling GAI graded cards on Naxcom or otherwise, then yes, there is a glaring conflict of interest. When I asked Steve and Sean both if they collected they both replied with a "No, not really" they eluded to the fact that it's tantamount to working at Burger King and then eating there when you're off work. The novelty of it wears off to an extent.
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Thanks for telling us about your experience with GAI. Aren't you primarilly a modern card collector? That is what I find very interesting. I have not seen too many modern cards in GAI hodlers at shows, aucitons or ebay. Have you noticed an increase of GAI graded modern cards or a greater acceptance of GAI by modern collectors?
koby
<< <i>Take this five bucks Mr. GAI.
OK, I'm thinking of a number.....the number is "9"..... Oh, you're thinking "8".....
Well, take another look at those corners.... here's another three bucks....how does "9" sound now?
Is this any way to run a grading company? >>
In a nutshell, this is what I said on a thread yesterday, and how I (and many) people perceive the grading strategy at GAI. I would bet that as long as this continues, they will gain no real foothold in the minds of serious collectors.
I did see a few modern cards in "Raw Review" type GAI holders at a recent show, but all at one dealers table.
I have seen a pretty sizable increase in GAI graded cards. I saw a lot of them at the KC Tri-Star show (already holdered, GAI only did RCR there) and I've seen a pretty sizable amount of them on ebay usually because of PSA/BGS spam in the title, and locally they are starting to pop up here and there. I recall in an earlier thread about a month or so ago, people were talking about GAI being quite difficult and how several people have turned GAI 9's into PSA 10's, or at least crossed them to similar grade. ie 8->8 etc.. While I don't agree with Steve selling his own companies graded cards, if that is in fact the case, I do believe the attitude toward "pre-grading" is getting a bit overblown. It's not simply a "hey, this isn't an 8.5.." grader replies "yes it is.." "Well, $5 more says it isn't" to which the grader replies "gee, y'know what, I think you're right..it is a 9 after all and I'd rather have you tell your friends that for an extra three or five bucks we'll help your grade and destroy our credibilty." They'd go down the tubes so fast they wouldn't know what hit them. Keep in mind, Steve helped start PSA and Sean was one of their top graders along with Mike, I think they know what they're doing. I have a lot more faith in them than a number of other grading companies.
In fact, when I watched Sean grading in KC a gentleman brought in a pretty nice looking Cobb...206 I believe... Sean looked it over and while he was doing so, I kind of stood back and watched...the whole time the owner of the card sat there saying...so is it a 6? To which Sean replied..well, not a 6 but it's a solid 4 or 4.5... The owner of course then told the story of how he acquired it etc and made "buddies" with Sean via small talk and how we was sure the card was at least a 5.5. Sean simply smiled, said it's a really nice card if not for the surface wrinkle and gave the man back is card. Graded a 4.5. Nobody was standing around watching them, they had a good chuckle with each other and you could tell the owner was trying to sway an extra half grade, well technically grade & a half... Maybe the card was really a 4 and not a 4.5 or just borderline and the guy's friendly banter helped him a bit. Maybe it's irrellivent because a card like that is probably going to be holdered anyway and they know that. However, I saw that same scenario play out all weekend while I was there, both with modern and vintage.
Another point I'd like to make, I saw a few cards that through the case looked pretty good and were priced well. I had asked Sean if I could bring a few cards over and have him take a quick look at it. He said sure and asked what it was, I told him a dealer sitting kitty-corner from them had them. He mentioned the guy by name and I said yeah... he said well that guy grades a lot of stuff with us, if it's not graded already I would say it probably isn't worth grading. He could have made an extra $30 or so looking at them but offered to do it for free, I didn't even bother bringing them over after that comment. So I think that speaks to their credibility as well. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use them. They are getting a reputation for being consistent and even a little tough sometimes. They don't put out a price guide of their own (yet) unlike some of the other companies and they seem to be crossing consistently. Not to mention that 3 of the top guys over there are former big wigs at our beloved PSA... The way I see it they should be gaining in popularity and the thought that any dealer(s) might be in bed with them is no different than any other grading company.
Now for my disclaimer.... I don't personally know any of the guys over there, I don't claim to know their business dealings, I have had one batch of cards graded with them, fairly in my opinion, and I don't own any stock or anything... I am simply stating my dealings with them and my perception of them. Your mileage may vary, your opinion may vary and something horrible might come out about them but my feelings about my dealings with them will still stand. I had good experiences with them and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of their cards or sell them.
Sorry, that wasn't intended to be a rant or anything..
Edited to say that I also didn't take any offense...I really didn't, though my reply may make it seem as though I did.
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<< <i> recently read that GAI will not charge the submitter if a grade doesn't meet the expected grade. >>
I've been told by a MAJOR COLLECTOR that he has been presented with such an offer in the past
This type of offer is not made to the general public.
<< <i>Before I'd get outraged at this and feel I had to use all capital letters, I'd call GA and ask them what they do and why they do it. If I was an exclusive PSA submitter/buyer I don't know why it'd bother me anyhow. >>
Greg Schwartz, go away. please.
If anyone can add details I'd love to hear them, since I actually like GAI, but am not psyched to see this possible turn of events.
<< <i>
Edited to say: that if Stever is in fact selling GAI graded cards on Naxcom or otherwise, then yes, there is a glaring conflict of interest. When I asked Steve and Sean both if they collected they both replied with a "No, not really" they eluded to the fact that it's tantamount to working at Burger King and then eating there when you're off work. The novelty of it wears off to an extent. >>
WOW, now I am outraged. So much for an anonymous grading room. The guys worse than a forum poster. No idea what the dealer is selling but in his expert opinion "He said well that guy grades a lot of stuff with us, if it's not graded already I would say it probably isn't worth grading." INCREDIBLE
You figure Voy goes over the GAI guy "grades" them and Voy is out money and time and the seller does not make a sale. Same thing happened. Seller did not make a sale, yet Voy lost no time or money.
Now Im sure if Voy was not interested in grading the conversation may have been different.
*this is all speculation and opinion on my part*
Basilone, even if the offer that you heard was true, it's nothing PSA hasn't done in the past. That's a fact and I know several dealers that have been given the same thing.
Secondly, If Steve is selling some cards on Naxcom, I don't think it is right, but for all of the naysayers out there griping are you forgetting that PSA (Collectors Universe) also owned Superior Sports Auctions. Talk about conflict of interest. Lets see a Collectors Universe company grades the card and and then it is placed in thier company owned auction house. I have personally seen many of the PSA graded cards in their auctions and would argue on some of those grades that were given.
<< <i>Secondly, If Steve is selling some cards on Naxcom, I don't think it is right, but for all of the naysayers out there griping are you forgetting that PSA (Collectors Universe) also owned Superior Sports Auctions. >>
If this is true, there is clearly a conflict.
<< <i>At least voy kept the name "sealed". But think about it, if you went to a table that had stacks of graded and "Raw" cards of the same issue/player wouldnt you think the same thing? That is IF you are buying for grading purposes. Obviously the GAI guy saved Voy some money, and made a customer by being "honest".
You figure Voy goes over the GAI guy "grades" them and Voy is out money and time and the seller does not make a sale. Same thing happened. Seller did not make a sale, yet Voy lost no time or money.
Now Im sure if Voy was not interested in grading the conversation may have been different.
*this is all speculation and opinion on my part* >>
I don't know the dealers name, and if I did, I wouldn't have said it here anyway. The guy did have a ton of raw and graded material. While I think that does say something, it is not always a tell-tale sign that the raw cards are not worthy of grading. Personally, when I do shows I try to keep a fair mix of raw with my graded. Usually my raw stuff is either what I consider no better than a 9 since I try to send in 10's only, or the cards just don't meet my grading criteria. You see, in an effort to stretch my grading dollar I decided not to grade much of anything if doesn't book $50 or better, isn't a superstar auto or isn't a high end rookie. So once in a while a $25 or $30 card will get graded because it's a rookie of a good prospect. If it books over 50-100 and it looks good or has a low pop or is a tough issue then I will slab it. None of my raw cards are failed trim experiments or just junk that nobody would want to grade...well, sometimes that may not be true. I've had a few 93 SP Jeter's that nobody in their right mind would grade.
One thing I'd like to clarify here too, is that I saw the guy talking to the grader, I saw him raw review some cards and the "anonymous grading floor" theory is pretty much useless at a show. The grader sits in a booth. There can easily be two sides to that argument,
1. You lose the "anonymous grading floor"
2. You see how cards are graded. (not a bad thing IMO)
3. You get some interaction with the grader and a great deal of insight (this was my case and I appreciated it tremendously)
4. You know you're cards don't get switched (Yes, we know that doesn't happen, but for some newbie submitters, this is a concern)
I would have been interested in grading the cards the dealer was selling. So maybe it wasn't a smart move on Sean's part, but I personally appreciated his honesty, I probably shouldn't have even brought that point up, but I thought it was a sign to his integrity and not wanting people to get taken or "waste" money. He did still offer to look at them for nothing for me but after I went back and looked closer I decided to pass anyway. Sure the seller didn't make any money but neither did GAI and I didn't "lose" any. Sure I'd be a little upset if I knew a grader was telling people to stay away from my table but the whole reason I asked was because some of them looked too good to be true and I wanted to make sure they were not trimmed etc and I am not great with vintage grading anyway. I've done some but not enough to call it close. Modern I can usually nail. But in those lower-mid grades I am clueless. If not for centering I can't tell the difference between a 3 and 5 unless the corners look like dust bunnies.
Anyway, you can make the argument either way, you can be outraged oryou can take away the same feelings I did. Appreciation and feeling like you dealt with good people, with high integrity. These are just my experiences and that's it.
Schrist: I'll have to check out that link. I wouldn't buy anything if that is in fact the same Steve Rocchi, I would imagine that's not an all too common name...Was the address in CA or IN?
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FYI: looks like someone is paying attention, as the name on the link I provided earlier has been changed to Jeffrey Paarks. Too bad I have the saved transaction data, with the original name. I knew I should have paid by check, just to be sure though.
<< <i>I can't believe some of the people on here complaining and spewing rumors that they know nothing about. GAI does not grade for free and charge only for encapsulation. They have a $5.00 pre grade fee. Basilone, even if the offer that you heard was true, it's nothing PSA hasn't done in the past. That's a fact and I know several dealers that have been given the same thing. >>
Simply put...that is not what I said. I meant to say that the collector would only get charged if the card received a higher grade than the previous slab it was in. These cards are currently in PSA registered sets.
The MAJOR collector that told me this is either he is telling the truth or simply lying to my face.
I was speaking of GAI...so there is not need to turn the discussion back to PSA.
I was mostly referring to the blowhards that come on here starting crap when they haven't the slightest clue of what is going on. I have dealt and had many cards graded by BOTH companies and I like having the option of a pre-grade rather to paying the full grade fee regardless if PSA holders the card or not. GAI's pre-grade service is very helpful onsite at the shows.
I also find it ironic that these people griping about Steve Rochi allegedly selling GAI cards when PSA basicly had their own auction house for many years. I see none of these people complaining about that. People should get their facts straight and be more knowledgeable before they come on here starting crap.
This can all be taken care of in one shot so you don't have to send back what you want holdered. If you send in a Pre-Grade order; you can check your PG order on their website. $5 for every card they looked at under that tier. They will list the grades for that submission # and you just click what you want holdered. If you click what you want holdered, they'll charge the extra $3. They'll send all your cards back in one shipment. If you do it at a show and they're PGing on site and you like the result(s) given, then you just turn those in. You can pay for it right there on the spot and pick up next show (depending where you are) or have them ship it to you (shipping is extra of course). Their turnaround times are always excellent. Usually done in 3 weeks. gacard.net You can check/read all about it on their website. Yes, I am pro GAI. I only use GAI & PSA exclusively.
Ruthfan-
Fair enough.
John