Bust half experts - I need some help - PHOTOS ADDED!!!

MrEureka

What can you tell me about 1794 O-109? I especially want to know about die states, strike characteristics and rarity. Thank you.

stman

Overton shows R-8

OnlyBuffalos

The only known O.109 variety is in VG10 condition.

MrEureka

The only known O.109 variety is in VG10 condition.

Not for long.

SethChandler

Andy, get a hold of a nice old time collection?

Conder101

<< <i>The only known O.109 variety is in VG10 condition.

Not for long. >>


Does this mean a second specimen has turned up and it isn't they only known piece anymore, or is the only known piece being slabbed and they're upgrading it?

MrEureka

Does this mean a second specimen has turned up and it isn't they only known piece anymore, or is the only known piece being slabbed and they're upgrading it?

I'll post the details ASAP. In the meantime, I'd really appreciate confirmation that there really is only one specimen known. If so, I presume that it is the Overton plate coin and I obviously know what it looks like. If not, I need more info about die states, etc, as originally requested.

MrEureka

BTW, there was already at least one other 1794 O-109 known, but it's struck in copper.



More info here.

Conder101

Your more info link to the patterns web site makes no mention of O-109, and the picture you posted is identified on the Patterns site as O-108. (I don't have my Overton) So is the coin mis-identified on the patterns site, are you asking about O-108 or 109? Or am I missing something else?

MrEureka

Your more info link to the patterns web site makes no mention of O-109, and the picture you posted is identified on the Patterns site as O-108. (I don't have my Overton) So is the coin mis-identified on the patterns site, are you asking about O-108 or 109? Or am I missing something else?

The coin WAS mis-identified on the patterns site.

MrEureka

Here's a picture of the new discovery:



More info on this page.

PreTurb

Andy, I'll reply with more comments after I've had a chance to study the photos.

It has been thought by some that the 1794 O.109 was an fabricated variety. In fact, the obverse and reverse photos in Overton 1990 are not of the same coin.

MrEureka

In fact, the obverse and reverse photos in Overton 1990 are not of the same coin.

No big deal. The reverse of O-109 appears on other coins. Maybe the reverse of the photo'd O-109 was too far gone and the reverse of another coin was used instead. The important thing is that the obverse of O-109 only appears on that variety. The Overton photo proves the existence of an extremely rare variety, even if, possibly, the reverse photo is completely wrong.

Edited to say that, regardless of the above, the copper die trials indicate that Overton was probably correct in his description of O-109.

Nysoto

Interesting! 1794 O.109 was brought to the Houston ANA in 1978 by Robert Hilt, who wrote "Die Varieties of Early United States Coins" 1980?. Robert Hilt was killed in a plane crash in the early 1990's, the wherabouts of the unique O.109 is unknown. One respected collector recently said he saw the coin in 1978, dispelling the myth the Overton plate is not genuine.

Edited - no Overton book with me, will be gone a few days, Preturb will validate.

MrEureka

Not alot of interest in this thread. That's a shame. Maybe it would have helped if the coin had been in an ACG holder?

Baley

I'm interested! but what's the story? whose coin, how discovered, what next??

RotatedRainbows

<< <i>Not alot of interest in this thread. That's a shame. Maybe it would have helped if the coin had been in an ACG holder? >>



I think it has more to do with interest and lack of knowledge for this series, few people can afford to collect pre Capped Bust halves as they can get pricey for just average examples. If you can find someone who is a member of the JRCS they could probably hook you up with someone who could know more about these early halves.

MrEureka

I'm interested! but what's the story? whose coin, how discovered, what next??

Baley - As I said before, more info about the discovery can be found here.



I think it has more to do with interest and lack of knowledge for this series

RotatingRainbows - How much specialized knowledge does it take to get excited by a newly discovered choice unc 1794 half dollar STRUCK IN COPPER? The fact it's an extremely rare die variety is just a bonus. A very interesting bonus.

RotatedRainbows

<< <i>

RotatingRainbows - How much specialized knowledge does it take to get excited by a newly discovered choice unc 1794 half dollar STRUCK IN COPPER? The fact it's an extremely rare die variety is just a bonus. A very interesting bonus. >>



Obviously alot for most on this board as witnessed by the number of replies (this is number 18 on a post you made two days ago) compare that to the thread about coins turning into chocolate which as I write this is at number 20 and it was just started today. As with most things people have more interest in a subject they can participate in and most cannot afford to when it comes to early Bust coinage. Also you generally have to have some interest as a variety collector to have something like new discoveries get you excited IMHO. It would not surprise me if you get more interest across the street on a subject like this.

MrEureka

this is number 18 on a post you made two days ago

And nine of the 18 posts were mine.

PreTurb

The history of the 1794 O.109 is somewhat mysterious. According to Robert Hilt's writings, he discovered his O.109 on November 8, 1976 in a dealer's stock. The obverse of the coin was plated three times in his 1980 book that Nysoto mentioned above. The obverse was again plated in the 1981 BHNC's supplement to the (2nd edition) Overton text (but not the reverse). The obverse and (alleged) reverse was then plated in both the 1987 BHNC supplement and the 1990 Overton/Parsley (3rd edition).

The O.109 obverse is Overton's Obv.6 and Rev.E. The Reverse E appears also on the O.105 marriage.

I had always assumed that the O.109 reverse pictured in Overton 1990 was the backside of Hilt's coin. It is a very late die state of the Rev.E. However, I recently discovered a O.105 coin that has the EXACT same reverse as that pictured as the O.109 in the Overton book.

This suggests one of two things - that the editors of 1990 Overton took Hilt's word that the reverse was E, and added the E photo (due to Hilt never supplying it); or Hilt provided the reverse photo of the O.105 instead of the actual reverse of his O.109 coin.

As Nysoto said, a respected collector says to have seen the coin, which gives credence to its authenticity.

Still, some believe that the 109 obverse was fabricated. The doubt surrounding the reverse photo only added to the mystery.

However, the discovery of the copper die trial 109 and the re-identification of the known 109 (previously called 108) leads me to believe that there is an excellent chance that the 109 does exist in silver, as is plated in Overton.

The reverse die state of the high-grade 109 is certainly earlier than that shown in Overton. The reverse of the lower-grade copper 109 also appears to be a much earlier die state. Of course, die trials would generally be the very earliest die state. Some of us are working to determine the exact chain-of-custody, so to speak, of the 109 reverse photo pictured in Overton. If closer examination of the high-grade reverse does confirm an exceedingly early die state, then that suggests that the 109 was struck before the 105, as there are 105's known with very late die states (as alluded to above).

This is exceedingly important for those of us trying to determine the die manufacture and/or emission sequence.

Thanks Andy, for the good work. Sounds like you may have a hand in this coin coming to market?

This is a monster die trial coin, and I think will eventually help clarify the history of a mysterious die marriage. If it were brought to market, I wouldn't be surprised to see it sell in the $150K+ range.

To answer your original questions, I know of only one silver 109, the Robert Hilt coin. As mentioned above, we do not have a reverse photo of this (Hilt's) 109, so it is impossible to confirm the reverse die state of that coin.

PreTurb