New leader at the top of the 50 pc and 144 pc Commem sets

MS68

Congratulations to JFS for the unbelievable set you have put together. What is even more unbelievable is that there were at least two errors made NOT in your favor when Heritage had the sets listed by PCGS. The 39-D Arkansas in MS68 was ommitted in the 144 piece set and the 38-D Oregon in MS69 was ommitted in the 50 piece type set. I am sure those oversites wil be corrected soon enough. Now if I can just figure out how to come up with an extra couple of hundred grand, I can have fun playing in your auction. Anyone want to loan me some money?

keets

hey Dave

serious question--------what would your targets be??

al h.

MS68

Keets- Targets? I am looking to hit a bullseye or two. I will be happy to divulge my results after the auction. I guess I will have to fend for myself.

puff

<< <i>Keets- Targets? I am looking to hit a bullseye or two. I will be happy to divulge my results after the auction. I guess I will have to fend for myself. >>



I was surprised he would even ask that question.

keets

hey Puff

why would you be surprised?? and why would you be reluctant to divulge what coins might interest you, Dave?? i mean really, how many of us do you think you need to be worried about as competitors?? given the nature of your collection and your willingness to go after a coin you sincerely want i'd figure anyone else who might be a serious player in the series already knows what you'll be after. i just don't fit into that category, but maybe i can go look at the auction pictures and come back and tell you what i think you'll be aiming at!!

al h.

MS68

Al- It only takes one person that could cost me thousands of dollars on the few coins I will go after if I divulge that information before the auction. I have purposely not kept up on any additions or deletions to my registry set after the initial listing of it for that very reason. You may be able to figure out what coins I will go after but hopefully for me, my main competitors will not.

keets

hey Dave

i can live with that answer. it also seems to dovetail with my response over at the Registry Forum about the JFS set and why it wasn't registered previously. i assume the owner preferred to build his set and remain quiet while some others saw more sinister reasons.

please let me know what your table assignment will be at the ANA this year. i'd like to stop by and chat and perhaps get the skinny from you on what you managed in the sale. hey, i'm always willing to listen to good advice and view beautiful coins. use the PM function if you prefer.

now go fine tune your aim for those 100 yard bullseye shots!!!!!!

al h.

BigE

I would think colectors would work together not to bid eachother up in an auction of coins like this, seems there is enough to go around--------------BigE

MS68

BigE- You are obviously not aware that what you are suggesting is called collusion and is illegal. As you have always come across as a very upstanding guy, you must not have been aware of the implications to your suggestion. As much as I would like to save a few dollars on the purchases I hope to make at the JFS sale, I cannot be a party to an illegal act. Put yourself on the other end of this deal and think how you would like it if all the collectors got together before you sell your coins and conspire to cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars off of your investment? I would imagine you wouldn't be too happy about it. Good luck in the sale, and I hope we all get some nice coins for our collections.

BigE

MS 68, collusion for collectors not to bid on coins they know a friend wants? Honestly this is news to me I have attended hundreds of auctions over the years and have considered it to be the norm----------------------BigE

MS68

BigE- Sorry to the bearer of the news that you have been committing an illegal act every time you did this. I am sure that when you have done this in the past, it has been on a very small scale and has gone unnoticed. I know most of the players for the JFS Commems and consider them friends. If all of us got together and split up the coins, instead of fairly bidding against one another, we would potentially cost the consignor hundreds of thousands of dollars.

tradedollarnut

David: there's a big difference between splitting up an auction [collusion] vs backing away from a coin because someone else is interested and you don't want to bid against him for either financial or friendship reasons [not collusion]. JMHO

BigE

MS68, I regard myself as a law abiding citizen, but I can't find anything in Heritages bidding rules supporting your claim, could you show me where it says that, or is this an unwritten rule?--------------BigE

MS68

So then what you guys are saying is that I should get all my friends that collect Commems together, that is about 20 of us, and each of us pick seven coins and then don't bid against each other? That sounds like splitting up a sale to me. Where exactly is the line drawn between not bidding against a few freinds and colluding to split up the sale and defrauding the owner of the merchandise of the fair market value? Please contact your attorney before setting out on this path. Especially if you plan on announcing your intentions on a public forum such as this message board so that written evidence can easily be found of your actions.

BigE

I can only afford one, so lets make that the limit. My attorney only wants one also so he says that is OK with him--------BigE

tradedollarnut

So then what you guys are saying is that I should get all my friends that collect Commems together, that is about 20 of us, and each of us pick seven coins and then don't bid against each other?

Splitting a sale is illegal.

If knowing that a friend [or customer] is interested in a certain coin [or that a certain bidder you can't outbid is on a coin] causing one to back away from a coin is illegal, then I suspect we are all guilty.

However, isn't collusion by the very definition an overt act between two or more people? The simple knowledge of interest on the part of another party and a personal decision not to bid because of that knowledge is not an overt act between two parties. And therefore not collusion. JMHO.

Russ

<< <i>If knowing that a friend [or customer] is interested in a certain coin [or that a certain bidder you can't outbid is on a coin] causing one to back away from a coin is illegal, then I suspect we are all guilty. >>



Yep, I committed several crimes over the past week and several forum members were in cahoots with me. Of course, we're talking about eBay peanuts coins that real collectors don't care about anyway. Funny thing is that most still sold for stupid money - relatively speaking.

Russ, NCNE

MS68

I have been advised by my attorney not to participate in any activity such as this. Yes, it is one thing to not bid against a friend or client on a particular coin, and yet another to conspire to carve up a sale among most of the leading candidates for the JFS coins in this case. The problem is that any small deal that gets started is likely to turn into the scenario I described. Please just bid on what you want and I will do the same. No hard feelings. There are plenty of nice coins to be had. I am sure if you pick at least a dozen or so coins to target, a few will turn out to be a bargain.

BigE

"I will either win it or it will cost the eventual buyer big bucks. That is what an

auction is all about. " I guess all is fair in love and war
--------------------------------------------BigE

tradedollarnut

Just to clarify my thoughts:

I totally agree that 'collectors working together' to not bid each other up is indeed collusion. Same as if dealers got together and did it.

But the simple act of backing off a coin out of respect for a friend or customer [your own decision] is not. JMHO.

BigE

MANOFCOINS, here is what I am saying, should three or four commem. collectors be riding in a car together to attend this auction I would expect that in conversation it would come up which coins each was interested in. There is nothing wrong with not bidding on the coin they like even if you like it too. I am playing devil's advocate here a little and I hope it doesn't make you or David upset. This would make an interesting "poll", and I would make one if I knew how---------------BigE

JoyofCollecting

When my wife brings home KFC, the rest of the family always lets me have the thigh because they know that is my favorite piece.

Please don't report this illegal activity to the authorities.

Russ

Your wife makes you guys bid on the chicken?

Russ, NCNE

JoyofCollecting

Hey ........ that's just in the kitchen.

I get a first right of refusal in the bedroom.

Catch22

I think the interest from the legal community is directly related to the value of the offerings and the net worth of the participants.

Reminds me of something I once heard: If you are married, never fool around with someone that doesn't have at least as much to lose as you do.

If I were playing around with 6 and 7 figure coin sets, I would do it quietly and discreetly.

MrEureka

BigE

Some of them look fishy to me too, I just don't want to flounder and outbid my friends on them---------------BigE

BigE

Are those potato's or fish! I guess it doesn't make any difference------------BigE

lloydmincy

David, If you are looking to keep extra cash for the Commems, don't bid against me or win any bids for any of the Womack buffalo's. OOOPs, is that collusion? Or was I just hopeful.

Wait, I don't have any friends, so how could I collude ????????

MS68

Lloyd- You have my word that I will not be purchasing any Buffalo's out of the B&M Carl Wommack sale for my collection. I will be representing a few customers, though, that may give you a run for your money on some of the better date pieces. Carl put together the finest collection of Buffalo nickels I have ever seen. Good luck to you at the sale.

lloydmincy

I'll see you there. It will be great to see you again. Our phone conversations were very informative...I was on pins and needles trying to gather every word you said!!!!

spy88

JFS,

Without a doubt, I'm quite sure your reg set is beautiful to behold---but without pictures of them, how are WE supposed to appreciate your collection?

Do you have a web site where they can be viewed?

David

Ah, just found the new thread with pics---GREAT!