Ebay auctions of 2 different Albert Pujols 2001 Bowman Chrome Auto BOTH cards #'d 5/500 (1/1)!!!

Snowball · July 9, 2004 2:42AM

I was browsing last night and saw this 2 Albert Pujols 2001 Bowman Chrome Auto both #'d 5/500 !!!

2001 Bowman Chrome Auto 5/500 graded PSA 9

2001 Bowman Chrome Auto 5/500 graded BGS 9

The seller of the PSA 9 graded explained that the BGS 9 was altered and basing it on the sticker serial# that the card company placed on the back. Is the seller of PSA 9 right about this?

envoy98 · July 9, 2004 2:59AM

WTF??? I remember both of these selling only a few months ago. I thought it was odd someone would break it out of BGS holder in the first place. Especially as a 9, unless they thought they'd get a PSA 10... then I saw it in the PSA 9 holder then again in the bgs holder. Now I realize it was 2 different cards. WTF??? I think I'd be asking Bowman which sticker applies to #5 and go from there. I wonder if both aren't faked.

pandrews · July 9, 2004 3:06AM

there was a thread about this card awhile back.. and evidently its easy to "erase" a number? (ie- one of the 5/500 might really be "15/500" or "455/500"..

maybe the grading companies should put the # on the flip somewhere..

Dallas88 · July 9, 2004 3:18AM

How do you "erase" a number?....I assumed that they were written in permanent marker?.....like a sharpie?

Can you "remove" a sharpie autograph, or printed number, from a Bowman autograph card?

Dal

pandrews · July 9, 2004 3:21AM

yeah.. i know rubbing alcohol gets permanent marker off my toploads..

sagard · July 9, 2004 3:31AM

Is there really that much of a premium on low run numberred cards to risk altering the card? Seems like a Pujols RC Auto would do very well no matter what the number is.

Dallas88 · July 9, 2004 3:32AM

Interesting - I don't have any Bowman Chome cards, but I had some '99 prestige ssd football cards in the closet. I took a beurlein card and gave a little scribble on it with a black sharpie....took the hair dryer to dry it...

Lo and behold - the scribble came right off quickly with some rubbing alcohol.....holy crap!

Now, obviously, I didn't try it on Bowman Chrome, as I don't know the details of the surface of the card, pen used to make the number, etc....but this DOES surprise me that the sharpie comes off so easily (on such a smooth surface)!

I assume Bowman Chrome surfaces are entirely smooth and not really "porous" (not quite the word I'm looking for).

Am I the only one who didn't know that rubbing alcohol does this on cards?

Dal

SoFLPhillyFan · July 9, 2004 3:32AM

I looks to me like the BGS is the real 5/500.

The two number fives on the PSA do not look the same and the numbers look sloppy.

Keith

Snowball · July 9, 2004 3:33AM

<< Is there really that much of a premium on low run numberred cards to risk altering the card? Seems like a Pujols RC Auto would do very well no matter what the number is. >>

#5 is Pujols jersey number.

Dallas88 · July 9, 2004 4:06AM

The two number fives on the PSA do not look the same and the numbers look sloppy.

I agree that the numbers look sloppy, BUT I don't think we can really say, from that piece of evidence that the BGS is the real card.

Where's Matlock when you need him!

Southsider · July 9, 2004 4:16AM

The PSA is a refractor, but the BGS doesn't state that it is a refractor on the flip. I don't know modern refractors from a hole in the ground, so I couldn't tell you if they are or aren't or what a refractor is supposed to look like.

schr1st · July 9, 2004 4:27AM

We've been discussing this over on the Beckett boards as well. So far, there seem to be 4 different "#5 of 500" cards out there: one PSA and 3 BGS. There may be more, I'm not sure. At this point, I don't know which one is the real one, so IMHO, they are all altered cards and worthless.

EagleEyeKid · July 9, 2004 5:02AM

So far, there seem to be 4 different "#5 of 500"

If 4 already exists, what's not to say that more can pop up if you can obviously remove 1 or 2 numbers in front of the 5 with alcohol or some other substance. I never liked hand written # in the first place. Factory Stamp for me only.

fsjeter · July 9, 2004 5:02AM

It also looks like the numbering on the BGS is more centered while the PSA is off to the right a little bit. I don't have any Bowman Chrome so I don't which is more common but it seems like the cenetered would be the norm.

Scott

mikeschmidt · July 9, 2004 5:13AM

Why not just make it a #5/5, and make it seem even more limited?

phreakydancin · July 9, 2004 5:14AM

Very interesting. The PSA seller states:

<< Some of you might be wondering how two cards BOTH numbered 5/500 (See item number 5107304601) can exist when each claims to be 1/1. Simple. One has been counterfeited. Which one? Simple. The one that is serial numbered HIGHER by Bowman than the other. The card listed in THIS auction is numbered BY BOWMAN 3040260. The counterfeit one is numbered 3040336, meaning that the actual number of the counterfeit in auction 5107304601 is actually number 81/500, Not 5/500. THIS ONE IS THE REAL DEAL. >>

However, if you study the hand-numbering, you'll see that on the PSA version, the first "5" looks nothing like the second "5", which might help to explain the fuzzy photo used:

I'm no handwriting expert, but on the BGS version, both 5s appear to be done by the same hand:

Edited to say: whatever the case, the zeroes are completely different on the two cards, so at least one of them, possibly both, has been completely re-numbered.

ctsoxfan · July 9, 2004 6:07AM

<< Why not just make it a #5/5, and make it seem even more limited? >>

Good thought, but it is well known that 500 of those cards were issued. Still, I can't believe anyone would mess with this card, regardless of number. If I had a Pujols Bowman Chrome Auto RC, I could really care less what number out of 500 it was. This whole "but it's his jersey number!" is quite overrated IMO.

koby · July 9, 2004 6:27AM

When I read this, all I could think of was the incident concerning 1995 Jagr Finest Gold Refractors which have a stated print run 158. Apparently there was a collector who accumulated a total of 165 and this colelctor spent over $150,000 in collecting the Jagr refractors. He sued Topps and I believe that he won that lawsuit.

I wonder whether this is a similar situation, since it has happened before with Topps.

ranch · July 9, 2004 6:43AM

Haha! Maybe there are about 7 #'ed 5/500!

Aknot · July 9, 2004 7:02AM

You would think Topps would make it EASY to check what the serial number on the backs of those cards.....

Stone193 · July 9, 2004 7:25AM

Not sure what happened here with the 5/500 but Koby's on target with them working the numbers game and a lawsuit in which a guy caught them playing the new math game:

<< Topps is the Enron of baseball cards, because they obviously can't count. They lied about their numbers, they were probably doing it for years and they finally got caught. >>

The Topps lawsuit involved the Topps Finest Gold Refractor #185 Jaromir Jagr from the 1995-96 issue. The suit was against The Topps Company, Inc. Topps has said there is LESS THAN 150 of these manufactured (e-mail me for scans). I accumulated 159. In March of 2003 Topps was found liable for FRAUDULENT MISREPRESENTATION by a jury in Saint Charles County, Missouri. Topps was ordered to pay $17,400 actual damages and $150,000 in punitive damages.
Stone

Snowball · July 9, 2004 7:55AM

I only know that this Pujols card is a redemption.

I remember back then 2 upper deck spx cards with same serial# (machine stamp) was put up on ebay.

envoy98 · July 9, 2004 8:42AM

177 GRAND!!!?!?!? Holy crap. Glad to see they got busted on it though. Lying b@$t@rd$

koby · July 9, 2004 8:43AM

stone

Thank you for the link to the ESPN.com story. I heard about the incident with the Jagr card, but I never knew that the same thing happened with the Maddux card.

This is outright scary. A few weeks ago, we talked about problems with UD going back to the presses to produce Griffey cards. A few days ago we talked about the Toppsvault mysteriously coming up with rare cards, proofs, sheets and other items. Now we see that Topps had problems deceiving collectors with the Jagr and Maddux cards.

Who know what is going on with the Pujols cards? At this point I wouldn't put anything past card manufacturers.

koby

koby · July 9, 2004 8:46AM

....I almost forgot the recent events about several high-dollar UD Exquisite Logoman card ending up with a single dealer in Southern California.

What a great hobby.

JonB · July 9, 2004 8:53AM

stone, I too would like to say thanks for that story... it was very informative

so any guesses as to how many '93 finest refractors are really out there?

Aknot · July 9, 2004 9:34AM

Cool I can change my 1/10 Terrel Owens "PSA ROCKS" auto to a 1/1...

Stone193 · July 9, 2004 11:16AM

<< Cool I can change my 1/10 Terrel Owens "PSA ROCKS" auto to a 1/1... >>

joestalin · July 9, 2004 11:26AM

I think that there is a way to determine which is the true 5/500 and that would have to do with the
cert # on the back of the card...a 6 digit number. Now wether or not the numbering in ink follows
the order is yet to be seen but that info can probably be found out. There has to be someone on
here who owns a double or even a triple of a numbered topps autograph card.

Anyone have any?

Kevin

Aknot · July 9, 2004 11:54AM

JS,

I think all the cert number does is cert that the auto is authentic. I do not believe it is linked to a certain serial number....but I could be wrong but I do not think "Topps" thought that far ahead.

Ebay auctions of 2 different Albert Pujols 2001 Bowman Chrome Auto BOTH cards #'d 5/500 (1/1)!!!

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