Provenance

RYK

Lately, I have been especially interested in the provenance of coins.

In the olden days, a typical provenance might be ex-Pittman, ex-Eliasberg, ex-Chapman, ex-Lowe.

The modern provenance goes more like this:
ex-"retail dealer", ex-3 different crackout dealers, ex-Superior auction, ex-fourth crackout dealer, ex-miscellaneous former collector who is no longer interested in coins, ex-Norweb. I have a coin that has a provenance that may be frighteningly similar to this.

puff

<< <i>Lately, I have been especially interested in the provenance of coins.

In the olden days, a typical provenance might be ex-Pittman, ex-Eliasberg, ex-Chapman, ex-Lowe.

The modern provenance goes more like this:
ex-"retail dealer", ex-3 different crackout dealers, ex-Superior auction, ex-fourth crackout dealer, ex-miscellaneous former collector who is no longer interested in coins, ex-Norweb. I have a coin that has a provenance that is be frighteningly similar to this. >>

Tassa

Barry

Robert,
I believe you left out a few crackouts

JrGMan2004

Personally, I only have 1 "Pedigreed" coin, a Benson... Pfft... and the only coin that I can tracee back (Besides the Benson) farther than the person I got it from, is a '41-S 66FB Merc I got from Woodie, that he got from JBStevens, who doesn't remember where he got it from...

kranky

Is there such a thing as ex-Jeweluster?

Placid

Rhode Island.

lava

I do not disagree, but would add that in the chain of title, add at least one or two attempts at a non-crack-out regrade. And depending who you buy from, it will still be hyped as top of the grade, near miss, what was PCGS thinking this day, etc.

100proof1957

ex crackout dealer,ex collector Joe.ex crackhead burgler,ex sleazy pawnshop,ex local coin dealer,ex i paid too much,ex ebay,ex collector Bill, ex EBAY,PCI PROOF 70 UDCAM REAGAN LIBRARY TRIAL STRIKE 27.50 GOLD PIECE Purchased from COINMOVERS (special thanks) for 17 million dollars

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tradedollarnut

Excellent post, Joe!

kranky

joconnor, great insights there. Some very interesting points I hadn't considered before.

mrearlygold

<< <i>Is there such a thing as ex-Jeweluster? >>




hahahaha, I could say something but obviously it might be a good idea for me to stifle my opinions these days ( or have them stifled )

Rgrds
Tom

ohbaby

Provenance has lost its importance in a world of no name pedigree slabs. I own an Eliasberg and a Pittman but purchased both coins for their look and grade.

The provenance interest is the sizzle in selling to an increasingly gullible collecting audience. Why else have the major slabbers been promoting the pedigree slabs to those who complete a registry set? Sort of like some wineries who allow you to create your own label so you can impress your friends. Nevermind the wine tastes like vinegar.

People who have money to burn and more ego than sense buy into provenance and are willing to pay large premiums. More power to them if it makes them feel good.

Personally, I rather have a super nice coin and could care less who owned before me.

tradedollarnut

What are you buying when you pay more than face value for a coin? Rarity, pride of ownership, history and the opportunity to recoup your funds [or more, or less] down the road when you sell. Provenance factors into all of those to some degree or another - and therefore cannot be completely ignored in favor of simply having a 'super nice coin'.

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RYK

Joe, these are great points. I will amend the provenance of my coin and consider it simply, "Ex-Norweb." Who knows, maybe someday, it will be ex-Norweb, ex-"RYK"?

paigowjohnny

I have a few Redfield Morgans....

And of course my 92-CC from the "Sarasota Frank Collection"

And throw in a couple other ex-jbstevens and ex-BAJJERFANs

Edited to add....want to acquire a "MadMarty Collection" weenie dollar.

BASEagle

A question here from someone who is not as deep into coins as some here are:

When a crackout artist gets his hands on a pedigree coin and submits it raw, how does grading company know for sure that the coin deserves the pedigree? If it's unique or super rare, then okay. But, otherwise, how does the pedigree "stick" in a case like this?

Mike

kranky

In the case you describe, the pedigree would be lost. But, if a future owner could document (via auction catalog photos, let's say) that the coin is the same one, you could probably get it back on the slab.

There have been plenty of cases where spectacular coins with great pedigrees have been dipped and stripped by a crackout artist for an upgrade, and since the coin no longer can be matched to auction catalogs, the pedigree is gone forever.

Steve27

"When a crackout artist gets his hands on a pedigree coin and submits it raw, how does grading company know for sure that the coin deserves the pedigree?"


This doesn't happen, because the grading companies won't pedigree a coin without supporting information. (Though I can remember a certain PCGS slabbed/pedigreed coin owned by jadecoin, but I wont go there.)

earlwbollinger

As soon as you crack it out and resubmit it "raw" the pedigree is lost forever.
Unless it is one of those extremely rare coins.
But those extremely rare coins are heavily documented. every scratch ding and flaw is documented, thus those coins would still likely keep their pedigree. But in some cases a stolen coin has resurfaced in this manner, much to the chagrin of the current owner trying to get it graded.
I forget the details but I believe a $20 gold piece was returned to it's rightful owner some 30 years or so after it was originally stolen.

Steve27

Now here's a valuable pedigree:

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steelheadbob

As a pure collector I feel a pedigree becomes part of the coin itself. It adds not only history to the coin but the coin moves from being just a coin to a story being told. The more that is known about the coin the more story it tells. Wouldn't it be great to know where some of the early gold and silver coins have been? Who spent them,what they purchased, and when and why were they put away to be collected?