Wanna hear the story of the key date Morgan in a pcgs au/53 holder that a buyer for a national firm was going to purchase and backed out because he thought the coin was bent? Selling dealer cracked the coin right there on the spot and lo and behold a bent coin that came straight from the pcgs holder.
I could start my "I'm starting to lose respect for PCGS" thread with that story.
Stuff happens. Overgrading, problem coins in holders, AT coins etc....
Generally, regardless of the grade on the holder, the market will dictate the status of the coin. Your example Morgan probably will sell for xf/45 money. Maybe not, but probably.
Here is a PCGS AU50 95-O. The 95-O is one of the weakest struck coins in the Morgan series. Pay close attention to the interior wing feathers, then compare it to the ANACS coin.
From what I've heard, ANACS does not tend to grade morgans well. This is probably just a mistake on their part. Just because of this mistake does not mean they will always be this way, there's the good and the bad. I promise you PCGS and NGC make mistakes too, it may not be as many, but they do, NO ONE is perfect. It may be the fact that PCGS and NGC have so many more graders than ANACS.. and they contributes to better grades. How many graders do ANACS have? 5 or 6? PCGS I know has alot more.
I love ANACS for their net grading. IMHO The last thing I'd want is to spend 40 bucks on a coin graded by PCGS or NGC and it not even come back grading. I believe every coin (unless its counterfeit) deserves a slab. I also like ANACS's small slabs. Give them another chance. Most recently I submitted my indian head gold coin to ANACS, (at which sahara coins graded it AU-55. Among the staff was a former PCGS grader), it came back from ANACS one grade higher, at AU-58. They may grade a little more liberal, but they still are good.
Fine, you found a well struck example in a pcgs slab (looks hairlined though, but that could be the pic).
There are good coins and bad coins in every grade in every slab.
It's like looking at beautiful cars. If you want to classify a group of cars as beautiful, we can then "rate" the group in order of personal preference of likes and dislikes. Everyone's list will be different, but after a while, the same cars will seem to be at the top of most lists, and similarly most of the same cars would be at the bottom of that list. They will still fall into that "beautiful" grade, just at different levels.
The strike has nothing to do with the interior wing feather detail. The bottom line is that ANACS 03-S is seriously overgraded. I've waited all day, and no one has produced an image of a PCGS AU50 that has that kind of wear on the interior wing feathers.
I'll qualify my statement on ANACS graded Morgans. They can be tough in the higher Mint state grades. They've always tended to overgrade circulated coins of all types. The answer? Learn to grade for yourself (applies to all the slabbing companies.)
why so clueless??? your not buying a COIN, your buying a PIECE OF PLASTIC WITH A COIN IN IT.
that piece of plastic comes with a grading guarantee, & if you don't agree w/ the grade, fine, SEND IT BACK FOR A REGRADE!
it's that simple folks. anacs grades to it's standard, & to babble about how your "losing respect" for them w/out even looking at the whole picture is absurd. again, get it through your pointy little head, your PAYING FOR PLASTIC W/ A GUARANTEE.
now if anacs fails to live up to their guarantee, ie they regrade it xf-40 but refuse to pay up, then "respect" becomes an issue, but for your whole little plastic world to fall apart becuase of ONE FREAKIN EXAMPLE is just plain ridiculous.
so i assume if i find a pcgs coin overgraded to the tune of $600, you will suddenly start to "lose respect" for pcgs?
Gee Karl, how could I complain that the coin was overgraded if I didn't know how to grade for myself? The problem is too many people do buy the number on the slab. And I have posted all companies holders when I find them, such as PCGS loose grading on mint state Carson City Dollars.
I've lost respect for all the grading companies. NGC on Mercury Dimes and Jefferson Nickels is similar to acg or pci... ms67 with large gashes! Pcgs is not immune either to some consistently lousy grading on some stuff like clad coins.
ok, so you found a anacs coin that, IF we agreed w/ your assessment that it's not au, which i dunno how you can possible tell w/out the coin in-hand to see the luster, what would you think of a pcgs coin w/ a several THOUSAND dollar swing? you can bid on it sight-unseen right now if you want to.
does anyone really think this coin grades ms-62???
<< <i>it's that simple folks. anacs grades to it's standard, & to babble about how your "losing respect" for them w/out even looking at the whole picture is absurd. again, get it through your pointy little head, your PAYING FOR PLASTIC W/ A GUARANTEE. >>
The point is that YOU ARE supposed to be able to count on the grade on the slab even if you don't know how to grade. Was that not the premise on which PCGS was founded in the first place? I think so!
<< <i>The point is that YOU ARE supposed to be able to count on the grade on the slab even if you don't know how to grade. Was that not the premise on which PCGS was founded in the first place? I think so! >>
no, the premise is that you can't get ripped off (at least by overgrading) because IF the coin's overgraded you get compensated for the amount by which it's overgraded.
your not supposed to be able to count on the grade, your supposed to be able to count on the VALUE of the PLASTIC.
"Just a couple of years ago I was a big fan of ANACS Morgans, I had great luck buying them and crossing over to PCGS."
So, where are all those threads of yours praising ANACS?
What, because more and more people are entering the "crack-n-cross" game thereby making it harder for you to play, you have to bash ANACS?
Considering the perdicament you now find yourself in, I'd think you'd back-off for at least a little while.
If ACG won the suit I would be saddened for what it would mean to the hobby, but a part of me would be considering that, just maybe, you may have gotten what you deserved.
Remember-and this applies to all of 'em-though some are worse than others-these guys are supposed to be the "pros." And, you're paying for their expertise. I can't tell you how many "MS" coins I've seen slabbed as such-almost always in the MS60-MS62 range-that were AU's, and not AU58's with just a bare trace of wear. Lots of AU50's and 53's. Hey, if they can't tell when a coin is Unc or not, well, that's pretty bad. At least for a "pro."
Anyone who truly collects/deals circ morgans will tell you anacs is very liberal with their grading of these coins. And by no means is this an isolated instance. Cruise through heritage and you'll find more "overgraded" circ morgans than you can shake the ole stick at.
Check the realized auction prices on these coins and you'll also notice a grade/price adjustment. Circ morgans in anacs holders roll down that hill along with the rest of the sh..
What's bothersome to me is anacs's net grading system, where the "details" grade is inflated out the yang, skewing the "net" grade closer to what would seem reasonable for a "details" grade.
<< <i>But Eric... I wonder... are you losing respect for PCGS and NGC for the coins they've overgraded? Please tell me the below coin should be in a PCGS-66 holder...
>>
A weak strike doesn't keep a mercury out of a 66 holder. The photo shows a lot of luster, I'd wager it is much more lustrous in person. The coin only has one mark on it. It could be a 66 easily.
I happen to agree with MDWoods......there is more than meets the eye here George - send the dime to Jeremy or Russ let them photograph it - something is amiss here - PCGS grades merc's quite tough - there is no way they would grade that dime 66 unless it is truly a super dime with a weak strike. they will not lower the grade b/c of a weak strike which is understandable. The buyer however should be buying the coin and not the holder as we all know or do we?
K6 your dollars is VF-35 ok ok EF40 at best .... you bet that is one glaring mistkae I'm sure -0 I totally believe the grader was smokin at that moment - no one in a concious state at either of the three grading companies would grade that AU.
If you hate the dime THAT much, send it in for guaranteed regrade, let them downgrade it, and let them compensate you for it. Mercs are pretty little coins, but I'm actually getting tired of seeing this one over and over and over.
While I agree that you found a 1903-S Morgan that, from the picture, looks overgraded, which lead you to start to loose respect for ANACS. Perhaps you should look at Stuart's 1885-cc Morgan that is featured on another thread and offer your grading opinion on that coin. I like it and I don't care which TPG company graded it...FROM THE PICTURE, it looks better than MS64 DMPL.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
We have no way of knowing when Stuart's coin was graded. As Al pointed out above, this isn't an isolated incident lately. As I said a few days ago, I've lost respect and confidence in ANACS slabs and will no longer buy them sight unseen, i.e. over the internet or on eBay.
<< <i>We have no way of knowing when Stuart's coin was graded. As Al pointed out above, this isn't an isolated incident lately. As I said a few days ago, I've lost respect and confidence in ANACS slabs and will no longer buy them sight unseen, i.e. over the internet or on eBay. >>
Well that is not particular to ANACS. I would not recommend that anyone buy any coin sight unseen, even those graded by PCGS.
I really have to agree that not buying coins unless you can see them first makes sense... unless you know the seller and have an understanding with that seller. I know that I miss out on some good ebay deals, but I think I avoid my share of problems. I still believe the best place to buy coins is at coin shows...even though the lighting can be a challenge at times, having the chance to see the coin first makes a difference.
As for Stuart's 1885-CC, It looks as if there are some different pictures posted and all of them look excellent. I tend to agree that, especially in the higher UNC grades, it is difficult to grade from a photo...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I've lost respect and confidence in ANACS slabs and will no longer buy them sight unseen >>
doesn't sound like the issue is really anacs grading, it's that your still trying to buy sight-unseen. that's a totally foolhardy venture, i don't care what brand of plastic it is. it is detrimental to newbies for you to ever endorse buying coins sight-unseen.
oh, no bogus excuses about living in the siberian outback, either. plenty of dealers offer coins on approval or w/ reasonable refunds. if you can't see the coin IN-HAND before committing to it, DON'T BUY IT.
it's rule #1: do not buy coins sight-unseen. PERIOD.
& finally, if you just can't handle this rule, get out of coins. collect something else.
There is another possibility, one which has not been mentioned. I absolutely deny that I am speaking of this coin in particular but only in general terms. That possibility when applied to ANACS plastic holders is that they are very easy to crack open along the exact lines they are sealed on. There are people out there who would take advantage of the tremendous price advance in the coin from xf to au by pulling an ANACS graded coin out and sticking in one of their own, then sealing the whole affair back up and making a handsome profit quickly. One who is good at what they do could do it without any trouble at all. who really knows? Best thing to do is to make sure you know how to grade or only buy PCGS coins. They cannot be cracked out and substituted at all. All other plastic can be messed with. JMHO.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
That said, someone asked about the age of the holder. To me the holder has little to do with it, unless it's a first generation holder or you know for sure when the coin was graded. Why? Becasue coins are constantly being submitted for regrade and reholdering. Therefore, that coin could have graded 15 years ago and we'd never know for sure.
Comments
I could start my "I'm starting to lose respect for PCGS" thread with that story.
Stuff happens. Overgrading, problem coins in holders, AT coins etc....
Generally, regardless of the grade on the holder, the market will dictate the status of the coin. Your example Morgan probably will sell for xf/45 money. Maybe not, but probably.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
K6 is right,that coin sucks for grade !
Pom Pom's are in the mail.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
From what I've heard, ANACS does not tend to grade morgans well. This is probably just a mistake on their part. Just because of this mistake does not mean they will always be this way, there's the good and the bad. I promise you PCGS and NGC make mistakes too, it may not be as many, but they do, NO ONE is perfect. It may be the fact that PCGS and NGC have so many more graders than ANACS.. and they contributes to better grades. How many graders do ANACS have? 5 or 6? PCGS I know has alot more.
I love ANACS for their net grading. IMHO The last thing I'd want is to spend 40 bucks on a coin graded by PCGS or NGC and it not even come back grading. I believe every coin (unless its counterfeit) deserves a slab. I also like ANACS's small slabs. Give them another chance. Most recently I submitted my indian head gold coin to ANACS, (at which sahara coins graded it AU-55. Among the staff was a former PCGS grader), it came back from ANACS one grade higher, at AU-58. They may grade a little more liberal, but they still are good.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Fine, you found a well struck example in a pcgs slab (looks hairlined though, but that could be the pic).
There are good coins and bad coins in every grade in every slab.
It's like looking at beautiful cars. If you want to classify a group of cars as beautiful, we can then "rate" the group in order of personal preference of likes and dislikes. Everyone's list will be different, but after a while, the same cars will seem to be at the top of most lists, and similarly most of the same cars would be at the bottom of that list. They will still fall into that "beautiful" grade, just at different levels.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
that piece of plastic comes with a grading guarantee, & if you don't agree w/ the grade, fine, SEND IT BACK FOR A REGRADE!
it's that simple folks. anacs grades to it's standard, & to babble about how your "losing respect" for them w/out even looking at the whole picture is absurd. again, get it through your pointy little head, your PAYING FOR PLASTIC W/ A GUARANTEE.
now if anacs fails to live up to their guarantee, ie they regrade it xf-40 but refuse to pay up, then "respect" becomes an issue, but for your whole little plastic world to fall apart becuase of ONE FREAKIN EXAMPLE is just plain ridiculous.
so i assume if i find a pcgs coin overgraded to the tune of $600, you will suddenly start to "lose respect" for pcgs?
HOGWASH
what's your real motive here?
K S
1921-D ANACS (G6) MERCURY DIME --------- PCGS (G06)
1921-D ANACS (VG8) WLAKING HALF --------- PCGS (DNC)
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
peacockcoins
does anyone really think this coin grades ms-62???
at acg maybe....
K S
<< <i>it's that simple folks. anacs grades to it's standard, & to babble about how your "losing respect" for them w/out even looking at the whole picture is absurd. again, get it through your pointy little head, your PAYING FOR PLASTIC W/ A GUARANTEE. >>
The point is that YOU ARE supposed to be able to count on the grade on the slab even if you don't know how to grade. Was that not the premise on which PCGS was founded in the first place? I think so!
<< <i>The point is that YOU ARE supposed to be able to count on the grade on the slab even if you don't know how to grade. Was that not the premise on which PCGS was founded in the first place? I think so! >>
no, the premise is that you can't get ripped off (at least by overgrading) because IF the coin's overgraded you get compensated for the amount by which it's overgraded.
your not supposed to be able to count on the grade, your supposed to be able to count on the VALUE of the PLASTIC.
K S
So, where are all those threads of yours praising ANACS?
What, because more and more people are entering the "crack-n-cross" game thereby making it harder for you to play, you have to bash ANACS?
Considering the perdicament you now find yourself in, I'd think you'd back-off for at least a little while.
If ACG won the suit I would be saddened for what it would mean to the hobby, but a part of me would be considering that, just maybe, you may have gotten what you deserved.
Jim
Anyone who truly collects/deals circ morgans will tell you anacs is very liberal with their grading of these coins. And by no means is this an isolated instance. Cruise through heritage and you'll find more "overgraded" circ morgans than you can shake the ole stick at.
Check the realized auction prices on these coins and you'll also notice a grade/price adjustment. Circ morgans in anacs holders roll down that hill along with the rest of the sh..
What's bothersome to me is anacs's net grading system, where the "details" grade is inflated out the yang, skewing the "net" grade closer to what would seem reasonable for a "details" grade.
<< <i>But Eric... I wonder... are you losing respect for PCGS and NGC for the coins they've overgraded? Please tell me the below coin should be in a PCGS-66 holder...
A weak strike doesn't keep a mercury out of a 66 holder. The photo shows a lot of luster, I'd wager it is much more lustrous in person. The coin only has one mark on it. It could be a 66 easily.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
42/92
K6 your dollars is VF-35 ok ok EF40 at best .... you bet that is one glaring mistkae I'm sure -0 I totally believe the grader was smokin at that moment - no one in a concious state at either of the three grading companies would grade that AU.
Marc
While I agree that you found a 1903-S Morgan that, from the picture, looks overgraded, which lead you to start to loose respect for ANACS. Perhaps you should look at Stuart's 1885-cc Morgan that is featured on another thread and offer your grading opinion on that coin. I like it and I don't care which TPG company graded it...FROM THE PICTURE, it looks better than MS64 DMPL.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>FROM THE PICTURE, it looks better than MS64 DMPL. >>
Pictures can be decieving...... ask Russ to show you the extremely hairlined AH Kennedy he got, that looked perfect in the auction photo.
42/92
<< <i>We have no way of knowing when Stuart's coin was graded. As Al pointed out above, this isn't an isolated incident lately. As I said a few days ago, I've lost respect and confidence in ANACS slabs and will no longer buy them sight unseen, i.e. over the internet or on eBay. >>
Well that is not particular to ANACS. I would not recommend that anyone buy any coin sight unseen, even those graded by PCGS.
As for Stuart's 1885-CC, It looks as if there are some different pictures posted and all of them look excellent. I tend to agree that, especially in the higher UNC grades, it is difficult to grade from a photo...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I've lost respect and confidence in ANACS slabs and will no longer buy them sight unseen >>
doesn't sound like the issue is really anacs grading, it's that your still trying to buy sight-unseen. that's a totally foolhardy venture, i don't care what brand of plastic it is. it is detrimental to newbies for you to ever endorse buying coins sight-unseen.
oh, no bogus excuses about living in the siberian outback, either. plenty of dealers offer coins on approval or w/ reasonable refunds. if you can't see the coin IN-HAND before committing to it, DON'T BUY IT.
it's rule #1: do not buy coins sight-unseen. PERIOD.
& finally, if you just can't handle this rule, get out of coins. collect something else.
K S
1903-S
If it doesn't sell here, I suppose next it will show up on eBay. Wonder what happens with their coins if they don't sell on eBay.
K S
That said, someone asked about the age of the holder. To me the holder has little to do with it, unless it's a first generation holder or you know for sure when the coin was graded. Why? Becasue coins are constantly being submitted for regrade and reholdering. Therefore, that coin could have graded 15 years ago and we'd never know for sure.