Cross with downgrades...is this a good idea? (with real life examples)

commemguy

The JFS Collection of Silver Commems will be sold in the upcoming Heritage ANA Signature Sale. In the collection, there are four very high value commemoratives that have been crossed from NGC to PCGS with one point downgrades. These coins are being sold with their respective NGC tags.

Here are the four lots:

1893 25C Isabella Quarter MS68 PCGS. Graded MS69 by NGC. MS69 NGC Tag # 163965-001 accompanies this lot.

1921 50C Alabama MS66 PCGS. Graded MS67 by NGC. MS67 NGC Tag # 288313-002 accompanies this lot.

1892 50C Columbian MS67 PCGS. Graded MS68 by NGC. MS68 NGC Tag # 163965-007 accompanies this lot.

1933-D 50C Oregon MS67 PCGS. Graded MS68 by NGC. MS68 NGC Tag # 1657596-002 accompanies this lot.


Do you think this is a smart thing to do?

coinguy1

<< <i>Do you think this is a smart thing to do? >>

Smart thing to do financially, Scott?

In the vast majority of cases, no. Perhaps in a rare instance, the now-lower grade PCGS coin might be a pop 1 item and realize a price in excess of what it would have in the higher grade NGC holder. But, I think that would be the rare exception.

By the way, if some of these coins happen to bring higher prices than they did last time, it can/should be attributed to a stronger market and not to my above opinion's being incorrect.

ldhair

Don't know if the cross was smart but at this point the old labels might help the sell price

tradedollarnut

JFS is a pretty darn smart fellow. A bastion of industry. I doubt he'd do anything too foolish.

The coin's the same. The tag is included. Anyone with connections can probably get it back in the same NGC holder. So does it really matter?

steelheadbob

I think it is always better to be honest and show everything. If the seller tried to hide the fact that another grading service had graded the coins lower and the buyer found out later. There would be alot of hurt fellings and cries of foul play. If you send the coins in for cross grading you take the chance and have to live with it. I am willing to bet if the coins had been upgraded the price would reflect the new grades. By taking the high road and showing all the facts the seller does alot of good for his reputation.

kranky

<< <i>The coin's the same. The tag is included. Anyone with connections can probably get it back in the same NGC holder. So does it really matter? >>



I guess it might matter to a buyer who didn't have connections.

291fifth

Probably not a good idea, though I admit that, due to my actual experience, I don't think much of NGC's grading of classic commems.

DAM

In this case you buy the coin and the holder(s).

tradedollarnut

I guess it might matter to a buyer who didn't have connections.

Just ask Mark Feld to do it at a show for you. What more connections do you need?


I was always of the opinion that a higher graded NGC coin was worth more in every case than the next lower PCGS grade. But I started seeing first hand examples of that not being true. Now I'm of the opinion that it's very situational. If the coin hasn't changed and it comes with the tag, many times there isn't much financial impact at all.

The only financial impact I see for those 4 coins is if someone was of the opinion that one would definitely cross at a the higher grade - then JFS could lose a bit.

Placid

I would want to see the coins before making a decision.
The coins may have been "coffin" coins in the ngc holders.

tradedollarnut

JFS didn't buy any coffins.

Placid

The Isabella sold for $46,000 in july of 2002 Link
as a pop 1/0.
See how it does as a pcgs pop 4/0. Btw its still on the ngc pop report.

Here is the new listing at Heritage. link

"We have seen one finer 1893 Isabella Quarter, that being an MS69 from NGC which we offered in our July, 2002 New York Signature Sale."

jcping

Regardless of 4/0, this one could be the best of the four. Does anyone see all four PCGS MS68?

keets

this is strange!!! i only went to the link that Placid provided and it seems that in an effort aimed at "discosure and clarity" Heritage has managed to cause anyone interested to reread for clarity and look at some pop reports for disclosure. i assume that anyone interested in the coins wouldn't really care about the holdered grade(sic) if they know the provenance. hey, the grade and previous sale price didn't matter to ol' what's his name---MS68---when he paid more than sheet for that Oregon a few months ago.

i think this is another case where we tend to sell the buyers short of Numismatic knowledge, savvy and ability to grade independent of anyone/anything else. i assume they know what they'rs doing and bid accordingly.

al h.

shylock

Since all these appeared at auction within the past 2 years, those who can afford to bid on them likely know their history and care less about their current label than is normally the case. And for the rest of us it wouldn't take much searching in their archives to find them. So I like the up-front approach, it's refreshing and puts certification in its proper perspective. They put 2 opinions on the table and let the buyers decide.

commemguy

Clearly if the majority of prospective buyers will consider only PCGS coins, then having these coins in PCGS holders is to the consignor's advantage.

In virtually every case (not speaking about moderns because I don't know that market well enough), NGC coins of a one-point higher grade are worth more than the same coin in a PCGS holder of a lower grade. I have seen exceptions to the rule. Specifically, the Monroe NGC MS68, which inexplicably traded in auction a couple of times for less than I think a PCGS MS67 is worth.

As three of these coins were population 1, finest known at NGC, it seems to me that there is some downside risk financially…especially if the prospective buyer either wants either the finest graded example at either service, or believes the coin will cross to PCGS at the same grade.

I am pleased to see that so many of the responses suggested that the past history of these coins, and Heritage’s "full disclosure" of the coin's history, will play favorably. It's the ultimate instance of buy the coin and not the holder. Coins of this caliber deserve to be valued on the basis of their individual merits.

Placid

Hopefully Heritage will fix the error in the listing as the coin they are saying they saw that was finer is the same coin they are selling.

BigMoose

I would love to hear what Greg Bingham thinks about these NGC to PCGS downgrade/crossovers.

shylock

I would love to hear what Greg Bingham thinks about these NGC to PCGS downgrade/crossovers.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing Tom. A long, interesting post filled with lots of italics.....

BigMoose

Shylock, if Greg does post, two things are for sure. It will definitely be entertaining as well as enlightening.

Nic

This is what is great about auctions. At ANA, the strong commem buyers will participate, and the coins will bring what they may. Coins; not holders. I hope I get mine . K

Placid

Here are all the coins in the NGC slabs when sold at Heritage.

Isabella Quarter

1892 Columbian

1921 Alabama

1933-D Oregon

I wonder if they were cracked out or crossed in the ngc holders.

Placid