Here's a $500 mistake from NGC

Barry

Ebay link. This coin is an 1866-S with the MM removed. NGC attributed it as an 1866, which is one of the semi-keys in the series. The clue is the slope of the date, down and to the right. In an 1866-P, the date is straight.

There was another thread about this a few weeks ago in which I mentioned I'd seen this mis-attribution before, once by PCGS and once by ANACS. This finishes the top three series...

BigD5

Barry are you sure?

I don't have my books with me, but that coin doesn't look messed with.

Not saying the scenario wouldn't happen.

greghansen

Interesting. Will NGC take steps to get the coin off the market if you make them aware of this across the street? Is it an alteration that has only recently been discovered or has it been known about for awhile. Looks like a fairly recent style NGC slab. At least they could identify the submitter from the slab number and determine if they had submitted other coins from the same date.

ldhair

Raw one on Ebay.

Someone is not going to be happy with this one

Barry

Darin - no question about it.

I sent an email to the seller suggesting he may want to use NGC's guarantee, rather than making it someone else's problem. We'll see what happens. I also emailed NGC.

ldhair

These seem to always have a really weak S.

On the NGC one you can still see a little of the die crack where it comes into the top of the shield.

I'm thinking it has to be a 66-S

elwood

I think it must be a weak S. I don't think NGC would miss the repair work if it was physically removed?

LanLord

Yep, there's only two dies used on that date/MM and one is a PROOF only die.

There's no wiggle room on that one.

The 66s is the one with the slope and the 66p date appears slightly smaller, lower and perfectly level.

Boom

Yes, that is correct. I have half a mind to buy it and present it to the ANA and NGC.

Theop

I (think) an S is pretty clearly visible in the auction photo.

Boom

Man, I am set up just like the graders just as probably most of you are, with twin lamps on either side and 100 watt reveal light bulbs, Man, I can see everything. Problem is some of these young bucks they have as graders don't know all there is to know about coins learned over the course of a lifetime. They do and will continue to make mistakes. It's inevitable. But to miss a worn out mint mark and not know the difference in the 2 coins- not taking the time to check it out because they have a quota to meet and can't take the time can prove costly for someone. NGC would make good on it as would PCGS.

Conder101

BigD,

It may not be messed with. The dimes and half dimes from 1863 to 68 from San Francisco tend to have very weak mintmarks that with a little circulation often disappear from the coin. Unfortunately the Philadelphia issues from those year are rarities and many of these weak S cons get offered as the expensive "P" coins. Often the only way you can tell which mint the coin came from is by identifing the specific dies as Barry has here (And he is right, with the date sloping down to the right it has to be an 1866-S). Or by an examination of the reeding guage on the edge of the coin. (Of course you can't do the latter in a slab.)

ColonialCoinUnion

Good eye Barry. Literally.

MrEureka

Good catch Barry. I'm sure NGC will take care of this.

UncleWiggly

I'm glad people know what is going on around here. I'd end up buying something like that and never know the difference.


Thanks, Jerry

jdimmick

I no very little about this date, but can almost see a very slight evidence of the s on the coin surface myself?

Intresting and good spot barry

originalisbest

Wow! Very, very good eyes. I have no doubt that NGC will take care of it - no one is perfect...

and, before this thread, I was not aware of some of these diagnostics. You learn something every day!!

K6AZ

I corrected the colors and slightly enlarged the image. There is no question to me this is a S mint coin. The shadow of the S is clearly visible.

Placid

How will they take care of it? Reholder it as a S-mint and blame it on mechanical error or reholder it as a S-mint and reimburse owner difference in value?

Boom

Yeah they will. That's chump change to the big boy's and can be written off. It's also good PR.

fountainheadgold

Barry, that's very Impressive, keen eye. Thanks for the education

MrEureka

How will they take care of it? Reholder it as a S-mint and blame it on mechanical error or reholder it as a S-mint and reimburse owner difference in value?

It depends on the circumstances in which the coin was acquired. For example, if the owner bought it raw, slabbed it, and is now offering it on eBay, NGC has no obligation to the owner. After all, they caused no harm. On the other hand, if the owner bought the coin based on the holder, NGC has an obligation to the owner. However, it would not be unreasonable of NGC to insist that the owner first seek recourse from the previous owner.

tradedollarnut

However, it would not be unreasonable of NGC to insist that the owner first seek recourse from the previous owner.

Hmmm. I remember a situation somewhat like this where PCGS did just that.... which of course got them skewered across the street.

SethChandler

The first thing I thought was the pattern of the date....it does look like an S mint obv. Can you post a picture of an actual S mintmark so we can compare the real one with the altered one.

Really, really sharp eyes!

Barry

Thanks all. I've been doing Seated Dimes long enough that I can spot this not uncommon misattribution, across the room Another one I pick up fairly often is a missed Partial Drapery on the 1838, which sells for a premium.

Seth - per your request, here are a couple of dimes from my collection. First, an 1866-S, with an enlargement of the MM just below it.




Next is an 1866-P. This one happens to be a Proof.


And last, a side by side comparison of the dates. Note the downward slope of the 66-S and the straight across 66-P.

Barry

Update - the seller cancelled the auction (though didn't send me a return email).

ms70

Good catch!

Robgetty

Wow, I never would have even known to look for something like that.
It is pearls of knowledge like this which makes me put up with the
people who get into stupid arguments on these boards!

boyhowdy

I had a VF like that where the "S" was so weak you had to be looking for it. You had to tilt the coin a certain direction under certain lighting conditions.

I posted it as an 1866-S in VF and got double bid.

Go figure.

Catch22

Another example of a 66 weak S ...my 66 philly issue is at Heritage for the upcoming Pittsburgh sale or I'd compare and contrast the two.

By the way, even under heavy magnification, there is no trace of a mint mark on this coin. Die characteristics are the only way to identify it.