Proof IHC Question -- Longacre Doubling????

FrattLaw

I found a 1879 proof IHC that appears to have doubling on the left obverse "United States." I known that IHC have what I've seen called Longacre doubling. It's hard to tell if its machine/hub doubling or whether its a true double die. Does anyone know if Longacre doubling is also found on proof examples or just mint state coins.

This particular doubling isn't listed in the CherryPicker's Guide either.

Also whats a good price on a 1879 NGC PF65RD IHC, if I decided to buy it.

Thanks
Michael

mgoodm3

I don't know of any major DD for 1879. that was the first proof Indian cent I got. I believe a typical price would be in the $1100 range depending on how nice it is. My 1879 is a 65RB (almost full red).

I believe Longacre doubling has to do with die preparation rather than real doubling. I found this excerpt online.

“Longacre Doubling” is rounded and you can see where the primary and secondary image starts and stops. There are two thoughts as to what causes “Longacre Doubling”. Both theories end up with the same result.

From about 1836 till 1886, the main design elements where put on the galvano and a reducing lath transferred the design onto the master hub. The master hub was raised or incused, because the metal was removed to leave the design of the galvano. The master hub was then used to make a master die. The master hub was pressed into the die steel to form the master die, so the master die had a recessed design.

The engraver would then use a punch to place the outer design on the master die. If the engraver wanted to give the punch more detail, he could shave the sides of the punch, leaving a lip on the punch.

If the engraver hit the punch extra hard, the lip would be incused into the master die. Thus causing the Longacre doubling on the working hub, the working die and the coin.

The second theory is after the design elements were placed on the master die, the engraver would go back over the design moving the punch just a little. This would place a small lip on the die to help the metal flow into the die.

It is also believed that Mr. Longacre felt this would give the dies a longer life and provide more coins from each die. Helping to reduces the expense of die production.

Both theories would produce a rounded doubling, but it is not considered a doubled die because the master die is only hubbed once and there is no separation of the serifs.

Not all dies produced the “Longacre Doubling”. On those that did produces the doubling, it will slowly disappeared as the die strikes more coins. Or if the die is polished for any reason. So, if a coin as the full doubling like this coin, it must be a very early die stage.

I am more inclined to believe the second theory because it explains why the doubling is found on Miss Liberty and the rock along with the outer design elements of the coin..

“Longacre Doubling” stopped appearing in 1886 when engraver Charles E. Barber added the motto to the master hub. Ah yes, a story to be read on another coin.

kranky

I've seen Longacre doubling on proofs. AFAIK, it will show doubling all the way around the lettering, not just in one direction like doubled dies and machine doubling would have.

mgoodm3

Here the best I could do on short notice. This is an 1869 proof.

FrattLaw

Thanks for the help. But comparing the coin to the photo -- the doubling is much different. I can now see what Longacre doubling is and this coin doesn't have that. But I can't tell if it's a true double die or machine doubling. My initial reaction was machine doubling, since it has somewhat of a shelf-like appearence, but then again it could be true double die. The doubling does look like some of the double dies found in the CherryPickers Guide for IHCs.

Is there machine doubling commonly found on proof IHC. I always thought machine doubling was due to the die wearing down.

I wish I could get a pic of this coin. It'd be an interesting find and for a good price. He wants $950 but is willing to come off that price even further.

Michael

mgoodm3

$950 is a pretty good price Heritage shows many in the $900 range.

shylock

After looking through Heritage's archives, doubling shows up on quite a few proof 1879s. Most of their enlarged images aren't crisp enough to see it in great detail but this one is a decent example. It looks a lot bolder on the right side of the lettering but if you look closely it appears on both sides (like on the U & D of UNITED). That, plus the fact that it only shows up on the legend, makes me guess Longacre's doubling.

Tonelover