Some observations on Toning - would really appreciate your input :)
FC57Coins
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As you guys know, toning appeals to me in a big way, but I also dabble in areas where toning is not well received – 1960’s coins, as well as other late date moderns. To help me discern the market for these coins, I’ve developed a little tool that I’d like to share with you. It’s a chart that talks to the characteristics that I would want to see in coin. First, the color a particular coin comes in, in some cases there are some very rare coloration factors that you deal with along with whether the coin is pretty – and it behooves one to know what kind of colors a coin can come in.
Next the general eye appeal of the coin I judge with the grade. Obviously an MS67 piece and above is going to get a helluvalot more attention than an MS63 should – but maybe the color isn’t all that great on the 67 coin. Next for me on toned coins has to be luster. If you don’t have brilliant underlying luster, you’re missing quite a bit. Next to luster I would put strike characteristics – is this a dull coin versus an Oh WOW coin? And then finally I would judge the overall eye appeal of the coin – what does this coin do to me – being able to categorize it in one of those three categories should be no problem.
And that’s the idea of making this a simple decision – we’re not splitting hairs between an MS63 and 64 – we’re merely mixing some subjective factors like eye appeal and luster, with some more matter of fact characteristics to give us guidance in the pricing of these pieces.
So to test this theory I chose the three Franklins on my sigline:
Candidate number 1 is a beautifully gold/red/yellow toned piece – grading about MS64, and with a very unusual coloration pattern for this grade. So:
Coloration: 2
Condition: 0
Luster: 2
Strike: 0
Eye Appeal: 2
So this coin comes out an 8 – keep that in mind
Next candidate is half number 6 – an astounding half with golds, reds, blues, turquoise, and green. Amazing – I’ve never seen anything like this in my life – Grading about an MS63.
Coloration: 2
Condition: 0
Luster: 1
Strike: 0
Eye Appeal: 2
This one comes out a 5.
The final candidate is an endroll toned piece with a very discernable pattern and color that I’ve seen before. The grade is MS64.
Coloration: 1
Condition: 1
Luster: 2
Strike: 0
Eye appeal: 1
Looky there – This one also comes out a 5. The bottom line is that if you are buying these coins on a regular basis and know what percentage over bid you are willing to pay for these coins, quantifying them in this manner may very well be a comfortable way for you to say that a 5 or 6 coin is worth X over bid as opposed to a 10 coin. By the same token, you can take coins that range from rare to very rare color wise and applying the chart see that when you weigh out certain things that are important to you, the pricing remains for all intents and purposes basically the same.
I was hoping some of you guys who frequently buy toners might apply your coins to this chart and see how yours come out. What changes would you make to the chart, what would you keep, what would you do away with – it should be enjoyable
Frank
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Comments
Actually , you have quantified what many of us do automatically.
This systematic approach is really good , especially for newbies.
Camelot
<< <i>Frank the concept is great but I think the weighting needs to be fine tuned. For example color and appeal mean much more to me than say strike. I would give strike 1/2 the weighting. >>
Good thougth - I also thought of pattern of toning - Endroll vs. Album vs. Bag vs. ??? - what would be more important to you?
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<< <i>I like your chart quite a bit- I think that it could be given small tweaks for different people, and be very useful for analyzing something that for me usually is more of a gut/emotional response (how I respond to a coin). I think for morgans (for me), strike wouldn't carry the same weight as the other categories (especially considering some dates that are notoriously weak on the strike). I think coloration as a stand alone category is good (just how vibrant the colors are, or how nice a particular color combination is), and I think a seperate category for type of toning (endroll, album, etc) would be good. Good food for thought- thanks!! >>
That's exactly what Im looking for - input from various people who may be into toned coins and can maybe add different perspectives.
<< <i>Good thougth - I also thought of pattern of toning - Endroll vs. Album vs. Bag vs. ??? - what would be more important to you? >>
To me this could be quantified with the following weights:
Endroll = 3
Bag = 2
Album = 1
...at least that is the weights I seem to give them.
Very Cool thought process you have going on here!!!!
My thing is that I can only add input for Franklins, since that has been my series for well over 25 years.
I can say that date is a factor. If you had two coins, say a 1958 and a 1955, and they both had spectacular color, the 1955 would command a much higher premium due to the fact that for that year, most mint set pieces toned very dark i.e., beautifully toned 55's are much more rare than beautiully toned 58's. So, your capsule for top third for date and type makes me wonder about application. Is there enough room for extreme rarity?
For me simple is almost always better and the chart does it for me. For me it would be as Myqqy said "very useful for analyzing something that for me usually is more of a gut/emotional response". Since I'm also one that really enjoys toning and the variations of color and pattern. I'm not as concerned with the grade if the color is "right."
You'll have to add an historic index for stman (love those early dollars
There is one question I have, though. When talking about how much over sheet you pay, do you notice a strong trend that it is XX% more with higher graded coins than lower? Since I haven't gotten to the stage of being able to buy anything "really" high-end, I'm not sure. Logic would dictate that even if you pay the same percentage, it would cost a LOT more to buy the nicer coin, as sheet alone could be much higher.
Jeremy
PS- Glad to see you're getting better! Now if we could just cure this Franklin disease of yours...
As for your chart, I would have to agree with MadMonk, you need to add Year/Date analysis to this. Some dates in certain series are easy to find with color. For me 22, 23 & 24 toned Peace $ are the easiest, followed by 1925 to find with really nice toning. The 28 & 34-S are downright impossible. So with some of my coins I am willing to buy a less dramatically toned coin of a harder to find toned date than a common date. And perhaps upgrade later if another comes along that I like.
As for adding an analysis for the pattern of toning, if you want to make this universal, leave that out. There aren't many coins that you're going to find with bag toning or even envelope toning. Perhaps assigning bonus points to unusual toning for that year might do the trick though.
Just my thoughts
Michael
Endroll = 3
Bag = 2
Album = 1
...at least that is the weights I seem to give them.
>>
I dont think this is appropriate, because it is too general. Toning has to be viewed as to the degree of beauty, regardless of the cause of the tone. You can'y say 'endroll toning is better than album toning'. Each toned coin has to be evaluated independently. There are plenty of album toned coins that blow away most endroll coins, and visa-versa.
Madmonk makes a good point about taking date into consideration.
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Mary
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<< <i>As for your chart, I would have to agree with MadMonk, you need to add Year/Date analysis to this. Some dates in certain series are easy to find with color. For me 22, 23 & 24 toned Peace $ are the easiest, followed by 1925 to find with really nice toning. The 28 & 34-S are downright impossible. So with some of my coins I am willing to buy a less dramatically toned coin of a harder to find toned date than a common date. And perhaps upgrade later if another comes along that I like. >>
Thanks for the kind words Mike - I think this is something that needs to be left to the individual collector to assess in the Coloration area. Since you're only considering one date at a time, you would maybe rate a 28 or a 34S slightly higher based on your experience with the grades.
<< <i>There is one question I have, though. When talking about how much over sheet you pay, do you notice a strong trend that it is XX% more with higher graded coins than lower? Since I haven't gotten to the stage of being able to buy anything "really" high-end, I'm not sure. Logic would dictate that even if you pay the same percentage, it would cost a LOT more to buy the nicer coin, as sheet alone could be much higher >>
That's the point of the whole question - I see a lot of us reinventing the wheel when we buy a toned Morgan or such, because the market hasn't dictated pricing on such pieces - it's all gut feel - this is a way, if you will, to quantify that gut feel
or modify the weighting to suit your needs. Frank is entitled to a free hump for this one.
Camelot
I think advanced collectors use similar algorithms to evaluate other factors in coin value as well. Rarity was mentioned, as well as a knowledge of how a particular mint issue "tends to come", as in "these always come with weak strikes" or "these generally come very baggy"
With respect to color, one thing I tend to evaluate and mentally rank is the appearance of how long the coin took to acquire it's patina and color, as well as the "favorability" of the likely storage conditions that caused it, as well as the likely degree of intent involved in the person doing the storing.
Dont have an equation worked out yet, just kind of do this empirically, but I think that most agree that genuine original bag toned morgans are the king of "unintentional and it took a long long time and it came out nice" and rank highest, followed by coins that look like they with obviously spent decade(s) in an album or at the end of a paper roll, and then down through various "accelerated" types of natural toning people sometimes talk about, such as putting coins in envelopes on windowsills and on radiators for weeks or months or a year or two (most consider this acceptable if the results look at least "pretty real" and the colors aren't all "carnivally" or flow wrong, and give credit to the coin the longer it took, two years is better than two weeks, all else being equal), and finally on the least desireable end of the scale, the very fast painted-on chemical toning and the blowtorch-oven color, or some combination of heat humidity and chemicals that takes a day or hour or minute. often on these, the hues are wrong, the color "sits" on the coin wrong, and the symmetry (obv-rev or L-R) is too perfect. Also falling into this questionable/avoid category are "real" toned coins, even in mint packaging, if they "look fake" with abrupt color transitions or fishy patterns.
(edited to fix a couple of typos)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>"tends to come", as in "these always come with weak strikes" or "these generally come very baggy" >>
And like Mike F. was saying about certain issues, that's a judgement call that you as a collector in your field would make
Glad to hear that you're doing better.
That's the beauty of this system - you could adjust it and fine tune it depending on which situation, or depending on which coin withina series you're talking about!
<<Coloration: 2
Condition: 0
Luster: 2
Strike: 0
Eye Appeal: 2
So this coin comes out an 8 – keep that in mind>>
Can you explain why its an 8? #1
">"http://www.cashcrate.com/5663377"
I have always prefered color and luster over grade and strike. Color and luster always equals eye appeal which is the most important atribute when I look at a toned coin...everything else is secondary. imo