Any rules of thumb for buying 100-yr.-old cleaned coins?
ccex
Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭
For the last 5 years, I have purchased most of my coins on eBay. I collect mostly Barber coins, with an occasional early commemorative, early Walker, or 19th century type coin.
When I bid on eBay, I ignore the retail price guides mentioned in many auctions, concentrate on the seller's description, and the scan. Most of the coins I enjoy most are in better grade circulated condition, and not plentiful in respectable slabs. I bid only on coins from sellers with good feedback who post a decent image and give some clues as to the coin's actual grade. Still, I have won quite a few cleaned coins by this method. I have returned a few and kept others that I won at a "bargain" price I can live with. I have found that most raw coins in local coin shops and raw coins from dealers trading $20 to $200 coins are just as likely to be cleaned as those offered on eBay.
I'm sure that many here are dealers who regularly have to make an offer on an entire group of coins, some of which have been cleaned. How do they arrive at their fair offer for the cleaned coins?
My question is, what seems to be the market price for a 75 to 150-year-old U.S. silver coin that has been cleaned? Assume for now that the cleaning is not hideous (like a shiny G-4 Seated Half, pinkish-orange Large Cent, or an early commemorative with lots of hairlines visible even in the eBay/iPix photograph).
When you are chasing a better date, with few truly original, uncleaned examples avaiable, do you wait years for the right coin to come along or are you tempted to pick up a nice example with an old cleaning (possibly retoned) at some fraction of CDN bid? If the latter, might you pay 70% of bid for a not obnoxiously cleaned coin? 60%? The next grade down? 2 grades down? I have been buying coins I need which I suspect are cleaned at 2/3 of CDN bid or the next grade down, whichever is lower, and haven't lost my house yet. On the other hand, I haven't had to sell off a big chunk of my collection for 4 years, either, so I welcome your insight.
When I bid on eBay, I ignore the retail price guides mentioned in many auctions, concentrate on the seller's description, and the scan. Most of the coins I enjoy most are in better grade circulated condition, and not plentiful in respectable slabs. I bid only on coins from sellers with good feedback who post a decent image and give some clues as to the coin's actual grade. Still, I have won quite a few cleaned coins by this method. I have returned a few and kept others that I won at a "bargain" price I can live with. I have found that most raw coins in local coin shops and raw coins from dealers trading $20 to $200 coins are just as likely to be cleaned as those offered on eBay.
I'm sure that many here are dealers who regularly have to make an offer on an entire group of coins, some of which have been cleaned. How do they arrive at their fair offer for the cleaned coins?
My question is, what seems to be the market price for a 75 to 150-year-old U.S. silver coin that has been cleaned? Assume for now that the cleaning is not hideous (like a shiny G-4 Seated Half, pinkish-orange Large Cent, or an early commemorative with lots of hairlines visible even in the eBay/iPix photograph).
When you are chasing a better date, with few truly original, uncleaned examples avaiable, do you wait years for the right coin to come along or are you tempted to pick up a nice example with an old cleaning (possibly retoned) at some fraction of CDN bid? If the latter, might you pay 70% of bid for a not obnoxiously cleaned coin? 60%? The next grade down? 2 grades down? I have been buying coins I need which I suspect are cleaned at 2/3 of CDN bid or the next grade down, whichever is lower, and haven't lost my house yet. On the other hand, I haven't had to sell off a big chunk of my collection for 4 years, either, so I welcome your insight.
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
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Would you rather have an original G-4 or cleaned F-15 example of a key or semi-key date if most of your collection, including all the common dates is XF-AU? Obviously common dates are not worth looking at if they are cleaned and original XF-AU coins sell for $20 to $50.
<< <i>Any rules of thumb for buying 100-yr.-old cleaned coins >>
Buy what you like. Avoid cleaned copper if you can, and anything whizzed or abrasively cleaned. I personally have no stringent objections to dipped silver, if it was done properly. Particularly if the coin has acquired some attractive secondary toning. Take Bust halves, for instance. Most of 'em were cleaned at one time or another. Some folks get very nitpicky about that. But I don't have a problem with it, if the price is right and the coin's not too unnatural looking.
Original is best, of course. But lightly cleaned coins can sometimes be an attractive alternative, if you are building a raw set in an album. I'm sure most folks here have seen Baley's famous Dansco type set. Beautiful, ain't it? Well, he knows how to pick coins with nice eye appeal, and he's been known to crack out some coins from old PCI red-label slabs or ANACS net-grades. I know, because I sold him a pretty little 1861 half dime that was a dipped UNC. It was in an ANACS UNC details/net AU50 slab since it had been cleaned, but it was a pretty little thing. Fit nicely in his type set. As I recall, he also has a lovely high-grade 1814 Bust half that was cleaned, and he broke it out of a PCI red-label slab. These coins in their slabs were less-desirable pieces, mostly because of what the slab labels said. But liberated from the plastic and put in their proper context, with an array of other beautiful type coins, they fit right in.
Sometimes it's a matter of context.
<< <i>I would spare yourself the misery and buy slabbed coins. Even though you like to play high stakes poker and are willing to bet the house on some unknown ebay seller, what makes you think there are others like you willing to take that same risk when you go to sell? If you are spending money you can afford to lose, then no worries, ebay away. If, however, you are spending amounts you'd like to recover someday, buy coins already graded. In my mind, there is no middle ground. >>
Thanks for the advice, but I'm still looking for a rule of thumb. How do buyers value a lightly cleaned (not whizzed) silver coin that is about 100 years old?
I do not play "high stakes poker" by bidding on cleaned coins from unknown dealers on eBay, although some do, and lose their shirts when they sell. Some of those who lose their shirts have taken your advice and have bought cleaned coins slabbed by lesser grading services who neglect to mention the cleaning. I do not bid on NTC or gold label PCI coins on eBay for exactly this reason.
I have bought and sold enough raw coins I can grade on eBay so that I can observe the following: If you are honest in selling the coin, you might get 40% of CDN bid if you mention the old cleaning for completeness sake, as I feel I must. If you simply post an image and say nothing about cleaning, you will get 70% -- or more if this is a key or semi-key date -- and will probably get positive eBay feedback if you ship the coin pictured quickly. My question on buting cleaned coins has a corollary that it is still to an eBay seller's advantage to neglect mention of cleaning, despite ANA standards which are rarely enforced.
The $40 to $100 coins I buy most often are rarely available in respectable slabs. I would crack the slab anyway to make the coin fit in one of my Dansco albums. I just received a PM from another collector on this forum who spent his time at a major coin show looking for respectable slabbed Barber coins in XF-AU. He found three, priced at retail to absorb the slabbing fees, and bought none. I was at the same show and bought 13 coins, all raw except for an NGC MS-66 Ike Dollar in a dealer's bargain bin for less than twice the slabbing fee.
I apologize if my tastes are cheaper than those of many who post here. I still have fun and generally break even when it's time to sell off my duplicates. I prefer to avoid cleaned coins, even though most of the available coins I collect are cleaned. I simply need to know what you think is a bargain price for a 100-year-old lightly cleaned circulated coin that is not a common date.
in fact, the bust half dime is unc/dipped net AU+. Heck, all these coins might be cleaned, what the heck do I know?
collect what you like and make no apologies.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
No matter how particular I am in aquiring coins, I always end up with a few problem coins for one reason or another.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
<< <i>The $40 to $100 coins I buy most often are rarely available in respectable slabs. I would crack the slab anyway to make the coin fit in one of my Dansco albums.
I apologize if my tastes are cheaper than those of many who post here. I still have fun and generally break even when it's time to sell off my duplicates. >>
You are precisely the sort of customer I sell to most often as a dealer. My main focus is 19th century type in the under $100 range, usually raw because not a lot of that material is slabbed. There are two reasons I can think of for that. One, it is usually not cost-effective for dealer to slab it. Two, a lot of this stuff has been cleaned at one time or another. People were not always so uptight about cleaned coins, and these old coins have been through a lot of collectors' hands. I freely admit that many of the type coins I offer for sale are probably cleaned, though I have not made any notation of the fact on their holders. I will note the cleaning as a problem if it is harsh enough for me to notice it. But if it is a light dip from long ago that has begun to retone, well... honestly, I wouldn't spot it as a cleaned coin most of the time. And if it doesn't distract me, then I don't consider it a problem coin. The only time I would worry about it is if I were gonna slab it. And if I weren't gonna slab it, who cares, as long as it still has nice eye appeal?
Don't apologize for your budget. You are in the vast majority. They call coins in your stated pricerange "collector coins" for that very reason. They are the bread-and-butter collectibles of the vast majority of Americans; the folks who are true collectors, and not all hung up over "investing", or microscopic grade splits or labels on little rectangular plastic holders or Registry scores (though all of that has its place, too).
It's a hobby. Have fun with it. Buy what you like and don't let anybody else's opinion get in your way. (Heck, look at me- I collect damaged coins with holes drilled in 'em, LOL).
Baley- it's always a joy to see your babies. The half dime looks great in there, even if I do say so myself. I remembered it as being a little whiter. Has it picked up some toning in there?
Post the halves- I wanna see that cleaned 1814 Bust half again.
As for your question, I think many dealers price coins according to the grade and ignore an old cleaning. A problem free coin might actually sell for above bid. If you are getting cleaned 19th century coins for 70% bid I think that's fine. I don't know if there's a rule of thumb for buying these types of coins.
What I did was basically search for the best coin (the one with the oldest or most minor cleaning) at the best price. My Reeded Edge Half took a long time to find. It's was cleaned a long time ago and had nicely retoned. The coin probably has EF details but I bought it for F+ money. I think I got a good deal, but I'm sure others would disagree.
Michael
<< <i>As for your question, I think many dealers price coins according to the grade and ignore an old cleaning. A problem free coin might actually sell for above bid. If you are getting cleaned 19th century coins for 70% bid I think that's fine. I don't know if there's a rule of thumb for buying these types of coins. >>
I agree completely. I think there's plenty of buyers (both knowledgeable and unsuspecting) who will buy cleaned coins.
I'm trying to fill the seated liberty holes in my Dansco type set album in F to XF grades and I've yet to find a coin that I'm 100% sure has not been cleaned. Just recently I've accepted the fact that most of the coins in my price range will be cleaned and I will just have to search for the ones that are still attractive despite the cleaning.
If you really want to calculate a price difference for cleaned coins then I would go to the Heritage website and do a search on ANACS net graded coins in the Heritage archives and compare their realized prices versus the non-net graded coins with the same grade.
FWIW, I'm enjoying this hobby much more knowing that I don't have to desperately search for uncleaned coins and/or attempt to realize a huge discount for gently cleaned raw coins.
And great topic.