Are GAI cards for dealers only?
koby
Posts: 1,699 ✭✭
On another thread, I read that GAI cards have a strong presence on major dealers' tables. I have also noticed the same thing at the bigger card shows.
On EBAY, however, it's a different story. On EBAY, GAI represents only a very small percentage of the 22,131 cards being sold at this moment. PSA, SGC and BGS all have far more cards represented than GAI.
PSA 19,946
BGS 5,299
SGC 989
GAI 597
(Total 22,131)
This leads me to wonder why GAI does not do well at all on the EBAY venue. I have come up with the following observations:
(1) When people talk about GAI, they always talk about the close connections that Baker and Rocchi have with the bigger dealers. This is good in the sense that we see a GAI presence at bigger trading cards shows. However, some people view the relationships that GAI principals have with larger dealers as a bad thing ( and comparable to the early days of PSA when rumors of backroom deal were flying around in the hobby. ) Many collectors today feel that GAI has a dealer following because GAI gives preferential treatment to the bigger dealers and collectors. While this may foster loyalty among its small network of dealers, this may actually have the opposite effect on the average collector who is turned off by this behavior.
(2) There has been many horror stories about how packages sent to GAI are lost or delayed. All of us may recall a few months ago when PSA did not immediately log in the receipt of packages when it had the $5 special. In that case, PSA made us wait longer than usual but still made almost all of its deadlines. Now imagine if PSA held on to the packages for a few more months after the stated deadline. Imagine if PSA lost the packages all together. That is what we have with GAI. Time and time again, we read about stories in which GAI loses packages or is months late in returning cards. I don't think many collectors are quite comfortable with this.
(3) GAI has time and time made promises that it cannot keep. For ove a year GAI has been promising a revolutionary registry for GAI cards and other cards. Every week someone woul dcome on these boards to announce that the registry will be up and running on Monday. Every Monday collectors would look forward to this revolutionary and interactive registry only to be left with nothing but disappointment.
(4) Take a look at BGS numbers and take a look at GAI and SGC numbers. BGS is for modern cards only while GAI and SGC specialize in vintage cards. Do you think there is more market share in encapsulating newer cards or vintage cards? I collect modern cards and I talk to a lot of modern card collectors. Hardly any of the modern collectors that I talk to have any interest in GAI cards......... at all!
(5) There was a thread here not long ago about the damage that GAI holders can do to cards. Apparently cards can slip though the gasket and get trapped between the black insert and the plastic. It is unclear whether GAI ever resolved this problem.
Those are the five main reasons that I see why GAI is lagging behind PSA, SGC and BGS.
On EBAY, however, it's a different story. On EBAY, GAI represents only a very small percentage of the 22,131 cards being sold at this moment. PSA, SGC and BGS all have far more cards represented than GAI.
PSA 19,946
BGS 5,299
SGC 989
GAI 597
(Total 22,131)
This leads me to wonder why GAI does not do well at all on the EBAY venue. I have come up with the following observations:
(1) When people talk about GAI, they always talk about the close connections that Baker and Rocchi have with the bigger dealers. This is good in the sense that we see a GAI presence at bigger trading cards shows. However, some people view the relationships that GAI principals have with larger dealers as a bad thing ( and comparable to the early days of PSA when rumors of backroom deal were flying around in the hobby. ) Many collectors today feel that GAI has a dealer following because GAI gives preferential treatment to the bigger dealers and collectors. While this may foster loyalty among its small network of dealers, this may actually have the opposite effect on the average collector who is turned off by this behavior.
(2) There has been many horror stories about how packages sent to GAI are lost or delayed. All of us may recall a few months ago when PSA did not immediately log in the receipt of packages when it had the $5 special. In that case, PSA made us wait longer than usual but still made almost all of its deadlines. Now imagine if PSA held on to the packages for a few more months after the stated deadline. Imagine if PSA lost the packages all together. That is what we have with GAI. Time and time again, we read about stories in which GAI loses packages or is months late in returning cards. I don't think many collectors are quite comfortable with this.
(3) GAI has time and time made promises that it cannot keep. For ove a year GAI has been promising a revolutionary registry for GAI cards and other cards. Every week someone woul dcome on these boards to announce that the registry will be up and running on Monday. Every Monday collectors would look forward to this revolutionary and interactive registry only to be left with nothing but disappointment.
(4) Take a look at BGS numbers and take a look at GAI and SGC numbers. BGS is for modern cards only while GAI and SGC specialize in vintage cards. Do you think there is more market share in encapsulating newer cards or vintage cards? I collect modern cards and I talk to a lot of modern card collectors. Hardly any of the modern collectors that I talk to have any interest in GAI cards......... at all!
(5) There was a thread here not long ago about the damage that GAI holders can do to cards. Apparently cards can slip though the gasket and get trapped between the black insert and the plastic. It is unclear whether GAI ever resolved this problem.
Those are the five main reasons that I see why GAI is lagging behind PSA, SGC and BGS.
0
Comments
One thing I would never do is mislead anyone here...I put my loyalties to my friends and fellow collectors above any grading company. All I can say is that I have made over 12 separate submissions to GAI in the last year...I have never had a order lost, never had a card slip through the gasket, and never rec'd anything less than good customer service--and guess what, I am not a dealer, just a collector who sells only on a "blue moon." Out of those 12 submissions, the longest I had to wait was 35 days. The other 11, the average is 2-3 weeks from the time the cards are received at GAI to the time when I receive the UPS package at my door. I am extremely happy with GAIs grading and service thus far.
Also, I have made 5 separate submissions to PSA in the last 3 months and I can say ditto for PSA as well. No orders lost, good customer service, and I get my cards back before guaranteed deadlines...I am happy with their grading and service as well.
John
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
<< <i>On another thread, I read that GAI cards have a strong presence on major dealers' tables. I have also noticed the same thing at the bigger card shows.
On EBAY, however, it's a different story. On EBAY, GAI represents only a very small percentage of the 22,131 cards being sold at this moment. PSA, SGC and BGS all have far more cards represented than GAI.
PSA 19,946
BGS 5,299
SGC 989
GAI 597
(Total 22,131)
This leads me to wonder why GAI does not do well at all on the EBAY venue. I have come up with the following observations:
(1) When people talk about GAI, they always talk about the close connections that Baker and Rocchi have with the bigger dealers. This is good in the sense that we see a GAI presence at bigger trading cards shows. However, some people view the relationships that GAI principals have with larger dealers as a bad thing ( and comparable to the early days of PSA when rumors of backroom deal were flying around in the hobby. ) Many collectors today feel that GAI has a dealer following because GAI gives preferential treatment to the bigger dealers and collectors. While this may foster loyalty among its small network of dealers, this may actually have the opposite effect on the average collector who is turned off by this behavior.
(2) There has been many horror stories about how packages sent to GAI are lost or delayed. All of us may recall a few months ago when PSA did not immediately log in the receipt of packages when it had the $5 special. In that case, PSA made us wait longer than usual but still made almost all of its deadlines. Now imagine if PSA held on to the packages for a few more months after the stated deadline. Imagine if PSA lost the packages all together. That is what we have with GAI. Time and time again, we read about stories in which GAI loses packages or is months late in returning cards. I don't think many collectors are quite comfortable with this.
(3) GAI has time and time made promises that it cannot keep. For ove a year GAI has been promising a revolutionary registry for GAI cards and other cards. Every week someone woul dcome on these boards to announce that the registry will be up and running on Monday. Every Monday collectors would look forward to this revolutionary and interactive registry only to be left with nothing but disappointment.
(4) Take a look at BGS numbers and take a look at GAI and SGC numbers. BGS is for modern cards only while GAI and SGC specialize in vintage cards. Do you think there is more market share in encapsulating newer cards or vintage cards? I collect modern cards and I talk to a lot of modern card collectors. Hardly any of the modern collectors that I talk to have any interest in GAI cards......... at all!
(5) There was a thread here not long ago about the damage that GAI holders can do to cards. Apparently cards can slip though the gasket and get trapped between the black insert and the plastic. It is unclear whether GAI ever resolved this problem.
Those are the five main reasons that I see why GAI is lagging behind PSA, SGC and BGS. >>
What has your personal experience been with GAI?
H. Walker
Brian
<< <i>What has your personal experience been with GAI?
H. Walker >>
It's been pretty good. I like GAI...just wondering why GAI cards are not as well represented on EBAY as at the major card shows
<< <i>God damn...........
from what I see if I was a dealer I would freaking run to them to break everything in my inventory and grade every piece of crap I could get my hands on and immediatly call the travel agent...wha-hoo!
....printing $$ has to be a huge rush.
not illegal, nor immoral... but a god damn thrill and a half... woooo-hhhoooo.
Wil they do a straight cross on KSA cards yet?? >>
KSA ! How many of those have been graded and how many are trimmed? I had a few that were all trimmed.
<< <i>Koby, good post. Your first paragraph sums up my current feelings about GAI pretty well. More than a few dealers I see at shows lately who sell graded cards seem to be talking up GAI lately, while badmouthing PSA when I mention how PSA cards are all I collect. The implications I get from these guys is that GAI "treats them better" and "is easier to deal with". That means to me - easier grading = more profits. I do think GAI cards are still graded better than, say, BGS...but the feeling of "special treatment" is pretty strong right now in the eyes of a lot of average joe collectors. >>
I am an average Joe collector. I have sent GAI 12 cards to be graded. I was 11 out of 12 in what I thought they should grade. I think if a dealer sent the same cards in he would have gotten the same grades I did. By the way The service was right on time
H. Walker
<< <i>If it is true that GAI offers dealers an opportunity to submit, and only pay for gradings where a minumum grade is met, as has been said on this board, then I want nothing to do with them. Perhaps that is the reason dealers like them. If they don't get the grade they want, they don't pay. Talk about a conflict of interest for GAI. >>
Instead of speculating about this why don't you ask dealers that submit to them. Or better yet call GAI and ask them.
I was lucky enought to be able to go to Chicago this week. I saw three major dealers submitting cards to GAI and in each case I saw them write GAI checks for their grading fees.
The three dealers were Wayne Varner, Bill Goodwin and Ric Chandgie. I would think that if anyone was getting free grades at least one of these three dealers would be. All three of these guys are high profile dealers with major inventories. There seems to me to be to many agendas when it comes to the different grading services on the different boards to believe anything you read unless you have first hand exsperience.
Thanks H. Walker
As you know, there's a great deal of mutual respect between us. Your post is important and astute. You've asked all the right questions. GAI is the rotten apple in the barrel right now. They have been nothing but lazy since their inception. Now, they've resorted to cutting fees for big dealers and overgrading their cards. It's their last shot to bring in a decent amount of submissions. If you are buying GAI cards now, know there is a 2% percent chance of getting them to crossover to PSA holders. If you break the cards out and submit them raw, then maybe your chances increase by a few percent.
I'm surprised dealers like Wayne Varner, Drent (Mile High), Madec, Maraya, et. al. have lowered their reputations by participating in this nonsense. They are going to be holding their high graded GAI cards in their inventory for a long time once further evidence becomes apparent. Grillo has always been a GAI supporter. I don't know his agenda, but I'm sure he is closely linked to Baker and the rest of the dips at GAI. He's never objective. While I don't know or dislike him, he's self-serving. His posts are well-written which give his skewed view some creedence. However, we all know that Ebay is the free market. PSA has 400 pages of cards. GAI has 15. GAI sells for consistently lower prices in the same grade and the half grade above.
Everyone here who has posted in the last year or two knows I want nothing but fairness and consistency with grading. I love the hobby. I have my own problems with PSA. At one time, I don't think they behaved much differently than Baker and his flunkies. I do believe they've cleaned up their act. However, the must face the problem of huge inconsistencies in their grading standards over the years. What's a PSA 3 now, was probably a PSA 5 when they were trying to establish themselves. Also, they favored dealers. Take a look at 707's scans. Those cards are hugely overgraded. 707 isn't that far removed in terms of prices, but his cards are all a grade less than slabbed. But, recently graded PSA cards are very much on the mark. GAI is simply following the blueprint they sketched at PSA. I don't tell people what to do. If you want to buy GAI cards, then knock yourself out. However, this isn't a good time. It's the card and not the grade. Don't forget that. GAI might evolve into something a bit more substantial, but the clock has been ticking and they've ruined most of consumer confidence. When you go to a show and look at cards, don't be fooled by GAI slabs outnumbering PSA slabs. You have greedy dealers always looking for an edge. Don't be suckered by back room deals.. Check the card, people. It's sad the true collectors among us have to fight off one scam after another. This is the current nonsense du jour. GAI will implode once this large number of recently slabbed cards for dealers fails to sell. If anything, wait a few months and see how thing shake out. Don't toss your hard earned money to a bunch of vultures.
Be well,
S.
in a psa holder-on ebay.it looked like a 9 and it was!
I agree that PSA will cross very few cards in GAI holders right now. But I think that's more a business decision rather than GAI's standards being lower. Your chances go way up if you resubmit raw, but it's still a gamble even if it came from a PSA holder.
Personally, I like my own collection in one consistent holder that I can register, so that means PSA (I had a mixed bag at one time). Selling, though, I believe there are lots of GAI and SGC buyers out there. Maybe they are buying the card and not the holder.
Why must one always tear down to make themselves feel better?
I agree with Buck. GAI is apparently romancing dealers as a way to move up in the world. They would be better off working on the collectors. With inexcusable delays in a Registry and message board, I don't see them ever becoming competetive.
I've submitted a few cards to GAI with erratic results in turnover time. Their submission form online has no invoice number, so I couldn't keep track of my order. There is no guarantee on turnover times. The cards did show up a few weeks later, but I would not submit again. I like to know where my cards are......when I am going to get them and will I be compensated if they are not back on time. PSA does all that.....GAI does not.
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
cards are side by side one is a gai holder the other is a psa holder..both graded 6's..
its a 52 mantle...you look at each card..cant see any real difference in the cards..only the holder...
which one are you buying? which one are you sure about? Hummmm......before you answer..think about the unreal mess with the 52 topps unopened wax from the mastro auction they (GAI) graded and the lawsuit they are now facing...
and who do I make the check out to for that psa holder sir?
edited for spelling
It is very interesting to see the prices realized for GAI cards in the major auctions. Time and time again I see record prices for GAI material in Mastro, Edwards, Mile High, etc but on ebay the cards sell for 60% to 70% of the PSA counterpart.
I have yet to see cards which are grossly overgraded by GAI but then again I am normally looking for PSA graded material. I do own a few GAI graded cards and feel these are accurately graded. I have learned not to submit them in the holder for crossover. You have to break the card out if you feel confident that it meets with PSA's standards. PSA is not very motivated to crossover GAI or SGC cards.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>GAI is simply following the blueprint they sketched at PSA. >>
Of all the lines in Scumbi's post (well done, and I largely agree w/you), that about says it all. Glad that PSA has cleaned up its act over the years, and I hope GAI does the same...
Yankee Collector 1958-60
Retired complete 1960 Topps set
<< <i>I love the holder, It looks very secure and I don't see how the card could get under the black insert, looks like it would be almost impossible for that to happen...... >>
Here is a bunch of interesting reading for you....
thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3
A few reasons/comments/thoughts from my experience with GAI:
I do not think PSA has proven expertise in the pre-war department. Their instrumental decision back in the early/mid 1990s to not label T-206 backs is one example. Besides issues raised by other collectors, the bottom line is that I enjoy having my Uzit/Lenox/Drum backs labeled as such. PSA does not cater to this audience. It is interesting to note, however, if you have a 2003 Topps T206 rare back, they will happily label it as such. But PSA's expertise with numerous pre-war issues has been (rightly) questioned.
PSA often makes mistakes and can oft-times be inconsistent. I have experienced this as a submitter and as a purchaser. Stories of inconsistencies, the Grader of Death, etc. are rampant on these boards if you listen long enough - and correcting the problem at the PSA level is often difficult. For example - I have on more than one occassion taken high-grade PSA 9 cards and showed them to PSA graders essentially asking "why is there not a 10". Given a 15x loupe and enough time, a miniscule flaw will always be "found", whether or not it is there. This is in stark contrast to results obtained from a "crack and resubmit" that will turn that PSA 9 into a 10.
Finally - on the half-grade issue. I am still on the wall on this issue. My personal conclusion is that there is significant value created/found with a 7.5 and an 8.5 grade. We often see high-dollar PSA 8s (think 1952 Mantle, for example) sell for significant premiums in strong, centered 8s versus other 8s. In these instances, I think there is value created by having the half-grade. PSA does not cater to this, either, and I strongly think that some consideration should be made.
Again, these are just my experience. GAI has had problems, as I've said, and they continue to have certain issues with their gasket technology, etc. But I have been extremely happy with those cards that I have submitted to them - and have felt I've gotten thorough, accurate responses on all the grades I've received. They are also very personable and are willing to discuss card grades with you (e.g. why a card got a certain grade, where a card is re-colored or trimmed), whereas this service is not typically available through PSA.
Best-
ms
<< <i>so heres your choice $10,000.00
cards are side by side one is a gai holder the other is a psa holder..both graded 6's..
its a 52 mantle...you look at each card..cant see any real difference in the cards..only the holder...
which one are you buying? which one are you sure about? Hummmm......before you answer..think about the unreal mess with the 52 topps unopened wax from the mastro auction they (GAI) graded and the lawsuit they are now facing...
and who do I make the check out to for that psa holder sir?
edited for spelling >>
What lawsuit is that? I know nothing about it. Could you please tell me the facts?
Thanks H. Walker
<< <i>
<< <i>
What lawsuit is that? I know nothing about it. Could you please tell me the facts?
Thanks H. Walker >>
You will hear no facts - much conjecture and talk - but true "facts" you will not find. There is allegations/conjecture that the purchaser of the 1952 Topps wax box is unhappy with his purchase, and has called to question the validity/merits of the graded packs.
<< <i>There is allegations/conjecture that the purchaser of the 1952 Topps wax box is unhappy with his purchase, and has called to question the validity/merits of the graded packs. >>
It would be a shame if the purchaser of the 1952 Topps box is not happy with his puchase. He spent a boatload of money.....$208,739.95, which is equivalent to $8,697.50 per pack, for the darn thing.
1. PSA has a stronger (I did not say better) reputation to the majority of the average collectors that mostly purchase on Ebay. Name recognition goes along way and GAI is not the house hold name (as of yet) that PSA is.
2. The vast majority of the high dollar GAI graded cards that are sold though the major auction houses are purchased by astute collectors that DO buy the card and not the holder unlike many of the average collectors on Ebay.
You have two different sets of collectors purchasing these cards. The online buyers and the deep pocket auction house buyers. The TRUE collectors buying these GAI cards could care less about the holder as long as the card is accurately graded and deemed unaltered.
Say what you want but I would bet there are alot more "knowledgeable" collectors purchasing though these auction houses than there are on Ebay. I'm not saying the average Ebay collector is stupid, but I would bet that the person who is shelling out the dough for these high dollar cards know what the hell they are doing and would tell if a card has been graded "softly". I would also bet that there are many Ebayers who have never even seen a GAI graded card in person to compare the grading standards to PSA thus purchasing the PSA cards on name alone.
Todd
Very well stated...I agree wholeheartedly.
JG
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
<< <i>If there is a suit you have to assume the Wentz' are behind it as they pointed out the packs were "no good" well before the end of the auction. There is also no love lost between them and the owners of GAI. You may not like the guys (Wentz') but they sure seem to know a lot about the hobby. >>
This is a very good point. I don't like them and will never buy another card from them, but they have the most knowledge in the industry good and bad.
1954
<< <i>
Say what you want but I would bet there are alot more "knowledgeable" collectors purchasing though these auction houses than there are on Ebay. >>
You might be right, but I am not sure the two groups are mutually exclusive. I have heard that there are some astute collectors that purchase cards on EBAY as well as bid in big auctions.
Imagine that.
Your just dealing with a whole different kind of collector who may drop $5K or more per auction from one of the auction houses compared to the average Ebay collector that may spend a couple of hundred a month.
I have never known an astute collector drop a bundle of money or small amount of money on a piece of plastic with no regard for the card inside while I also know of collectors buying cards that are overgraded with no regards to the actual card inside.
It just seems that with Mastros and other auctions it's all about the card inside the holder while most of the time on Ebay its all about the holder and not the card.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is allegations/conjecture that the purchaser of the 1952 Topps wax box is unhappy with his purchase, and has called to question the validity/merits of the graded packs. >>
It would be a shame if the purchaser of the 1952 Topps box is not happy with his puchase. He spent a boatload of money.....$208,739.95, which is equivalent to $8,697.50 per pack, for the darn thing.
I know and have spoken with the purchaser of the wax box, and he is very happy with the purchase.
H. Walker
<< <i>The online buyers and the deep pocket auction house buyers. >>
Nowadays they are one in the same. Check out the money Charlie has spent on PSA cards on eBay the past 2 weeks.
I guess he still has faith in the product if he is shelling out tens of thousands of dollars for those PSA slabs...eh?
He may be crossing over some of his sets or his whole collection....but at the end of the day...the dealers selling PSA slabs are ones getting his $$$$.
<< <i>If there is a suit you have to assume the Wentz' are behind it as they pointed out the packs were "no good" well before the end of the auction. There is also no love lost between them and the owners of GAI. You may not like the guys (Wentz') but they sure seem to know a lot about the hobby. >>
I don't know what the Wentz's said.
If they said the packs were no good they are 100% wrong.
They were Canadian issue ( not OPC ). They are the same cards as the USA distribution
These packs have less cards in them than the USA packs.
They have a different advertiisment on the back of the wrapper.
Those packs are 100% legit.
The consigner was the head of Canadian distribution for Topps.
I know there is no lawsuit by the purchaser of the box. I know the purchaser and he is very happy with his purchase.
I will tell you this the purchaser has had a sudden illness in his family and is selling a few packs from the 1952 box and some other years to help offset
some of the medical exspences.
Who starts the rumors?
Thanks H. Walker
<< <i>Say what you want but I would bet there are alot more "knowledgeable" collectors purchasing though these auction houses than there are on Ebay >>
I disagree.
If a well known dealer like Louis Bollman or Greg Bussineau is selling a card on eBay....their company's reputation is directly on the line. Many of these dealers will refund a bidder if the buyer is unhappy with his or her purchase and/or make things right.
With an auction house...the buyer has no idea who the consignor is...there could be several hundred of them. If buyer is unhappy..he has no recourse as most auction houses have a strict no returns policy.
How about this zinger - A consignor who normally deals on eBay could specifically consign some of their "questionable" high dollar slabs so that they are no long personally responsible (the auction house is) and their reputation is saved by not having to deal with an unhappy bidder.
It seems to me that a "knowledgeable" collector would like to deal a seller (or dealer) whose name is directly associated with the card (eBay listing) and will stand behind it rather than a firm that offers no returns whatsover.
Half the stupid auctions are up on ebay. Most of the dealers that run auctions also sell on ebay. Rare, expensive cards are rare and expensive in auctions and on Ebay. I prefer ebay because most sellers don't do the Bill Mastro Bull-a-description:
"This card almost puts the smell of napalm in our noses again. Cut from a limited batch of 90 million 1967 Topps cards, this PSA 2 example of Pumpsie Green has four corners sharper than chef-prepared cheddar. If you'll turn your eye to the player's name, you'll see each letter in precise order and a rare team designation below. What more could one ask for when looking to purchase a collectible that can be handed down from generation to generation if one of your kids outlives you. Bid now. Bid often. To quote Dom Deluise, "No spaghetti is bad spaghetti". P.S. F.O because I'm rich thanks to you dimwits...Bill.
And, one other note from me - Don't buy wax packs. The idea is to connect with the players of the day. Staring at a hermetically sealed wrapper isn't a hobby. It is clearly absent of any of the pleasures this hobby can provide. Open the dumb packs and get the cards misgraded like the rest of us.
Also, Mr. Mint is far more interesting than the Wentz brothers. Where is he? I hear he's deep in the Africa scouring the Jonestown site for Kool-Aid cards. Anybody else have an update?
S.
Pump, pump pump it up
<< <i>I know and have spoken with the purchaser of the wax box, and he is very happy with the purchase.
H. Walker >>
Mr. Walker: Thank you for your update - it is greatly appreciated. There are many who stars and perpetuate these rumours - and it seemed like there was no corraborating evidence to support such allegations. Mike Wentz, although he did not start the rumours, did spend a lot of time "de-bunking" the possibile validity of the packs, as it related to the claims that Mastro was making.
I wonder if the person you are speaking of is the one I think purchased the box? He is an advanced collector that sold at least one of his 1950s graded sets in order to bankroll the bids for the box.
Best-
ms
<< <i>Also, Mr. Mint is far more interesting than the Wentz brothers. Where is he? I hear he's deep in the Africa scouring the Jonestown site for Kool-Aid cards. Anybody else have an update?
S. >>
Small historical correction for Scumbi.
Wasn't Jonestown in South America? Guyana I think.
Regards,
John Wayne Gacy
<< <i>
Again, these are just my experience. GAI has had problems, as I've said, and they continue to have certain issues with their gasket technology, etc. But I have been extremely happy with those cards that I have submitted to them - and have felt I've gotten thorough, accurate responses on all the grades I've received. They are also very personable and are willing to discuss card grades with you (e.g. why a card got a certain grade, where a card is re-colored or trimmed), whereas this service is not typically available through PSA.
Best-
ms >>
MikeSchmidt...the problems with the gaskets stem from slabbing those super-thin vintage tobacco cards, or other types of really thin cards. Standard cards are not a problem IMO. I have never seen a regular sized card (thickness wise) slip through one of the gaskets. GAI needs to slab these really thin cards in a different holder or procure a more secure gasket for them.
Also, I agree...I like the fact that you can find out why a card received the grade it did.
Finally, We've seen time and time again on how a little rumor starts on this board and eventually gets passed along as fact. (i.e. the 1952 Topps Wax Box, and how GAI is a dealers-only type grading company).
I am not a dealer, are you? Well at least that makes 2 who submit to GAI who are not dealers.
JG
Silver Coins
e-bay ID: grilloj39
e-mail: grilloj39@gmail.com
GAI and SGC also downgrade for centering, of course, but not necessarily 2 full grades. They take into account the degree of centering and its overall effect on appearance. With PSA, if it falls outside the centering guidelines, even by a smidge, it's OC or an automatic 2-grade drop. Such a borderline OC might knock a 9 down to GAI 8, which will sell for more than either PSA 9oc or PSA 7.
Although the oc qualifier equals a 2 point hit on the registry, it does not automatically euqate to a 2 grade hit on the card if no qualifiers is requested. A PSA 8oc that is submitted with the request of no qualifiers may come back as a PSA 7.
The mandatory 2 point deduction is for the registry GPA only. If you request NQ's from PSA, it is my understanding that they will lower the grade to the appropriate level for its centering -- it could be a single grade, it could be 2, it could be 5....
edited to say ZodiacMindWarp is fast on the trigger!
<< <i>Koby,
As you know, there's a great deal of mutual respect between us. Your post is important and astute. You've asked all the right questions. GAI is the rotten apple in the barrel right now. They have been nothing but lazy since their inception. Now, they've resorted to cutting fees for big dealers and overgrading their cards. It's their last shot to bring in a decent amount of submissions. If you are buying GAI cards now, know there is a 2% percent chance of getting them to crossover to PSA holders. If you break the cards out and submit them raw, then maybe your chances increase by a few percent.
I'm surprised dealers like Wayne Varner, Drent (Mile High), Madec, Maraya, et. al. have lowered their reputations by participating in this nonsense. They are going to be holding their high graded GAI cards in their inventory for a long time once further evidence becomes apparent. Grillo has always been a GAI supporter. I don't know his agenda, but I'm sure he is closely linked to Baker and the rest of the dips at GAI. He's never objective. While I don't know or dislike him, he's self-serving. His posts are well-written which give his skewed view some creedence. However, we all know that Ebay is the free market. PSA has 400 pages of cards. GAI has 15. GAI sells for consistently lower prices in the same grade and the half grade above.
Everyone here who has posted in the last year or two knows I want nothing but fairness and consistency with grading. I love the hobby. I have my own problems with PSA. At one time, I don't think they behaved much differently than Baker and his flunkies. I do believe they've cleaned up their act. However, the must face the problem of huge inconsistencies in their grading standards over the years. What's a PSA 3 now, was probably a PSA 5 when they were trying to establish themselves. Also, they favored dealers. Take a look at 707's scans. Those cards are hugely overgraded. 707 isn't that far removed in terms of prices, but his cards are all a grade less than slabbed. But, recently graded PSA cards are very much on the mark. GAI is simply following the blueprint they sketched at PSA. I don't tell people what to do. If you want to buy GAI cards, then knock yourself out. However, this isn't a good time. It's the card and not the grade. Don't forget that. GAI might evolve into something a bit more substantial, but the clock has been ticking and they've ruined most of consumer confidence. When you go to a show and look at cards, don't be fooled by GAI slabs outnumbering PSA slabs. You have greedy dealers always looking for an edge. Don't be suckered by back room deals.. Check the card, people. It's sad the true collectors among us have to fight off one scam after another. This is the current nonsense du jour. GAI will implode once this large number of recently slabbed cards for dealers fails to sell. If anything, wait a few months and see how thing shake out. Don't toss your hard earned money to a bunch of vultures.
Be well,
S. >>
Your post is completely misleading:
1) I have both bought numerous GAI graded cards AND submitted a few hundred to them. In my estimation, their grades are VERY accurate.
2) At the last Fort Washington show there were MANY more people submitting to GAI than to ANY of the other companies. They are not hurting for business, (and NOT due to your unfounded allegation that they "overgrade".
3) Look at the last Mastronet auction and you will see that, for the most part, the prices for GAI graded cards is right in line with PSA.
4) Their "turnaround" time is MUCH more reasonable than other graders . I have a submission out to PSA that was mailed in mid-April. I still have not received my cards...
5) If Baker and Rocchi were still with PSA, I bet you wouldn't be calling their company's grading "nonsense".
Just my observation, no offense intended
<< <i> I have a submission out to PSA that was mailed in mid-April. I still have not received my cards...
>>
I think you have some free submissions coming your way!
<< <i>
<< <i> I have a submission out to PSA that was mailed in mid-April. I still have not received my cards...
>>
I think you have some free submissions coming your way! >>
Really? How great!
Dave
No offense taken. As always, I respect every opinion posted here. However, I have made my observations based on personal experience too. I didn't go off and write some GAI bashing post without reason.
1. I've submitted hundreds of cards to GAI as well. I found the grading to be very inconsistent. Some were graded well above what they deserved and others were inexplicablly low. There was no rhyme or reason. I received some explanations. Most were based on centering. However, when examined there was no pattern to the grade versus centering.
2. I receive my cards back from PSA on time unless there's a huge special. I don't have to call ten times and be put off by PSA. GAI always plays dumb. They don't return their calls and when they do they pretend they have no idea why you are calling.
3. PSA holders all my cards. GAI made a big deal on how they holder all cards. However, upon return, five cards were graded but they said they didn't have appropriate holders.
4. Auction prices are just one source of info. ebay is a free market and PSA sells for quite a premium over GAI cards. There is no comparison between the two on same grade cards. Auction cards are usually very high end. The auction cards, thus, would sell for the high prices regardless of holder.
5. I had a number of cards disappear at GAI. They did find some, but a few were lost. In my opinion, this is the kiss of death for a grading company. I don't want to worry about cards disappearing when submitted.
6. GAI lets you specify your grade or you don't pay. PSA doesn't play this nonsense. Tying income to specific grades kills any credibility at GAI.
7. Last, I don't think Baker or Rocchi are particularly responsible. I don't think they liked the nonsense going on at PSA in the early days when dealers would call them and harrass them. However, when their turn came, they gave in and started playing the same game.
Card grading is horribly flawed. The only way to put up with such a system is to put the cards ahead of the grade. I do that. I believe PSA is the lesser of all evils out there. I'm most worried about card alteration. I think PSA is most vigilant. You might find GAI to be better. It really doesn't matter. There's a laundry list of what's wrong with each company. If PSA didn't have the set registry, the differences would be further diminished. Both companies keep a very close eye on expensive cards and artificially build their curve to protect values. Joe Collector is often used to fill the curve so a higher grade holds its value for a dealer or friend-submitted card. There are so many different games being played by all companies that it's impossible to track them. Additionally, grading varies by grader to further complicate things.
Bottom line - There's no right or wrong here. It's whatever works for the individual.
Best,
S.