Now this is what I call a double profile

OKbustchaser

Link

Although double profiles are fairly common on bust material, this is by far one of the widest spreads I have seen prior to the mid-twenties.

JimP

hughesm1

Even though it may have been cleaned at some point, that is one wild BH!

Craton

That is wicked! I am a somewhat advanced error collector and I don't know, and would like to know, what causes this. I have seen this effect on large cents as well. It isn't simple strike doubling is it?

pontiacinf

wackman

Placid

I wonder why the large picture of the obverse is cut off like that

OKbustchaser

Jason,

Worn open-collar die presses would often allow the planchet to shift while being struck.

JimP

Placid

If the planchet shifted that much I would think the stars on the right in the picture would be elongated on the left side as well.
Pretty weird looking

LanLord

That is cool, I really like it.

Agree with cleaned, but still cool

pontiacinf

for the boards experts, and I use the term lightly

Dear pontiac-full-step,

Regarding the bust half with the doubled profile (posted on the PCGS forum), the image was cutoff due to an error during the upload process. I've corrected the problem by reloading the image. Also, to address one of the forum members' concerns, the coin has not been cleaned. The dies used to strike this particular die marriage were used well beyond the normal lifespan of such dies. Due to extreme die wear and a very late die state (as characterized by the multiple die clashes), the die tended to rattle, or "chatter" during the process of striking coins. Generally, that is the accept explanation for the severe doubled profile seen on many bust halves (and large cents). Hence, the term "die chatter doubling" is now used. Thanks for bringing the image error to my attention, and feel free to post this on the forum! Sincerely, James Garcia http://www.EarlyUS.com

Placid

Why dosen't JadeRareCoin just post themself

JadeRareCoin

Why dosen't JadeRareCoin just post themself

Actually, that is not our auction. James Garcia, one of the founders of Jade Rare Coin, has listed that under his new company, EarlyUS.com. He and I decided to split after 5 great years of working together. We still work with each other on a daily basis, buying and selling coins, and we will always be friends. We started collecting coins together in the 5th grade (late 1970's) and have been friends ever since.

Regarding the double profile halfin his auction, that is one of the most dramatic doulbed profiles that I have ever seen. Worthy of a nice premium, imho.

I just checked James' other auctions that closed yesterday, and it is no surprise why he is still banned from the PCGS forum :

plastic slam auction
another slab-slam auction
.....yet another

Nysoto

That is a very impressive double profile, and nice luster with an accurate grade. The reverse of this die marriage also has impressive clashing, LIBERTY can be seen clashed within the shield in a certain die state, and on a later state the obv die was rotated, clashing LIBERTY in a different position right of the shield. In the latest die state some of these clash marks were lapped off (polished). Close-up?

Russ Logan's explanation of double profiles was the metal die cup the hammer die was placed in became worn, causing the die to shift during striking. Some years such as 1822 have no known double profiles. The years 1823, 1824, and 1825 were the most common as mintages increased during those years with apparently not enough preventative maintenance. Some reverse double profiles on certain varieties have been found, leading to the possibility that the reverse die was used as a hammer die on rare occasions.

A fascinating coin. Bid high!

JadeRareCoin

Russ Logan's explanation of double profiles was the metal die cup the hammer die was placed in became worn, causing the die to shift during striking.

Nysoto, I have heard that explanation as well, but I just don't understand why the date, stars and other devices are not doubled under that theory. If anyone can explain it to us, it's you. Please??

Myqqy

Nysoto, I have heard that explanation as well, but I just don't understand why the date, stars and other devices are not doubled under that theory. If anyone can explain it to us, it's you. Please??

I also don't understand why just the profile is doubled.... it looks very cool though!!


I just checked James' other auctions that closed yesterday, and it is no surprise why he is still banned from the PCGS forum

Why has he been banned from this forum??

Nysoto

Jade,

I have also wondered why the rest of the devices are not doubled, I do not have an explanation but will ask around. Logan's explanation describes the mechanics of the rattle or "chatter", but does not explain why doubling occurs only in certain areas. Others had explained the doubling as a "bounce" during striking, but it is not the same as a double strike, which are very rare. One thing is certain, there are 8 years in which doubling is not found in the capped series, and certain die marriages within the most prevalent years are not doubled, therefore Logan's theory of lack of maintenance in certain years is correct, as doubling can be found in all die states of selected varieties in certain years. I do not know if the same applies for early copper.

Another oddity is a very rare occurance of doubling on both the obverse and reverse. Go figure!

I will get back in 2 or 3 days with more info.

JadeRareCoin

I have a different theory, but it's only backed up by my thoughts/opinions and no scientific data.

I believe that the double profiles are the result of the dies being serviced at the mint to strengthen the main device. We know that there was a hub used to sink the main device (Ms. Liberty). I think that the doubling and tripling (yes, there are triple and even quadruple profile bust halves) are the result of misalignment of the hub when re-sinking the main bust device. I would readily accept Logan's theory (which was actually Al Overton's theory) if I could understand how only some devices are doubled, but not the others. Also, bust halves are known with multiple profiles on the stars, but not the profile. It just doesn't make sense.......

Nysoto

The hubbing process that sinks the bust on the working die sometimes needed two or more impressions, but there is no evidence of hub doubling on bust halves as all die marriages found with machine doubling also exist without machine doubling.

If the working die was serviced at the Mint to strengthen the bust, this would result in double (or more) profiles from this die state on. Die marriages such as 1825 O.103 show double, triple, or quadruple profiles, and also no doubling, and these occur randomly and are not tied to die state. Other doubling is not tied to die state on most die marriages.

I have not got back with anyone yet, but checked some more references. After the hubbing process sinks the main device (Ms Liberty), the dentils are engraved (not punched) one by one, then the stars, letters, and numerals are punched in, sometimes strengthened or recut with a graver. Hair detail is also improved/added with a graver (different on most obverse dies). When the devices are sunk the surrounding metal is displaced. I have taken numerous metalworking courses and had a silversmithing hobby/business for a while, and the metal displacement is very apparent anytime a punch is used as opposed to a graver.

The working die is then lapped with rouge, and polished with a finer rouge. The coarse rouge can cut metal quickly, I have reshaped hammers and anvil stakes very fast with this method. The lapping process has proven to be directional and focused to areas on the die needing it the most, on the initial lapping this would be to remove the displaced metal, with lighter lapping to remove the burrs left by the graver.

The highest portion of the working die is the field. When the lapping/polishing is complete, the surface of the working die would not be a perfectly flat plane. With doubling on bust halves, the highest portion of the field would be slightly impressed first, in most cases this is the profile of Liberty, leaving an impression in this area, then striking pressure causes a minute shift of the hammer die in a worn die cup before all of the devices are fully struck. It would be interesting to examine some actual obverse dies, but few are left (1805 O.102, 1806 O.110, 1806 O.123, probably others).

Stars that are doubled could possibly come from improper shimming of the dies causing an uneven strike (1806 O.111), the field on one side of the coin would contact the planchet first (1833 O.103 right side stars doubled).

The surface of the working die (fields) is not perfectly flat, this could explain why some devices are doubled and others are not.

I believe the worn die cup/equipment theory is valid because doubling is not found in certain years, and other years follows the emission sequence of the dies, then stops suddenly.

It would be interesting to get other opinions on this.

JadeRareCoin

Nysoto, you just sold me on Logan's theory. It does indeed make sense. Thanks for taking the time to provide you intelligent insights.

I did consider the possibility that the different depths of the field and devices could result in only certain areas to be doubled or tripled from a worn die cup. And, of course, the fact that the doubling is not tied to any specific die state is irrefutable proof that the doubling is not in the die. Your post confirms that possibility.

Dog97

So that's machine doubling?
Man it's really neat with the clashing too.

errormaven

A few months ago I saw a 1991 Lincoln cent on eBay with the same sort of "strike doubling". The entire face, neck, and front of coat was as strongly doubled as the coin under discussion. The eye was also doubled. Nothing else was doubled except for some odd doubling of two of the columns on the reverse.

I have occasionally come across recent coins with the same sort of dramatic strike doubling. A 1992 nickel with this extreme form was featured in Coin World a few years ago.

It all appears related to a very loose hammer die.

JRocco

Here is an example to a much smaller degree with a modern Jeff.

MrEureka

Just a thought...

When a coin is struck, the metal flows outwards towards the edges. However, before the entire planchet can flows outwards, the central devices of the die, i.e., the portrait, must be filled. Therefore, initially, the metal is flowing inwards and outwards from the borders of the portrait. Once the metal fills out the portrait, the metal that comprises the portrait will reverse direction and head out towards the periphery. That reversal will create a wave in the flowing metal, and the flattening of that wave (as the result of increasing pressure from the dies) will result in a second profile. Interestingly, the outward wave may actually cause the dies to chatter, at the moment when the wave crashes into the borders of the die's portrait recesses. So it may not be so much the chatter that causes the doubled profile, but - in a sense - just the opposite.

Of course I'm just making this stuff up, I really have no clue.

Texast

<< <i>Here is an example to a much smaller degree with a modern Jeff.
>>



Out of curiosity, what year and mint is the Jefferson you pictured here?

MrEureka

When a coin is struck, the metal flows outwards towards the edges. However, before the entire planchet can flows outwards, the central devices of the die, i.e., the portrait, must be filled. Therefore, initially, the metal is flowing inwards and outwards from the borders of the portrait. Once the metal fills out the portrait, the metal that comprises the portrait will reverse direction and head out towards the periphery. That reversal will create a wave in the flowing metal, and the flattening of that wave (as the result of increasing pressure from the dies) will result in a second profile. Interestingly, the outward wave may actually cause the dies to chatter, at the moment when the wave crashes into the borders of the die's portrait recesses. So it may not be so much the chatter that causes the doubled profile, but - in a sense - just the opposite.

To take this a little further, if this is right, the factors that would increase or decrease the likelihood and extent of profile doubling would probably include the speed of the press, the proportion of the thickness and diameter of the planchet, the relief of the design, the lopsidedness of the relief (I'm guessing that the outward wave would exit at the central device's place of lowest relief), the hardness of the planchet, the die pressure, and perhaps more.