I've never seen anyone stoop so low !!! Revised-Equal Time to the other side...
NumisMe
Posts: 841 ✭✭
This guy is trying to make us all look bad by helping some one else circumvent the system while pocketing the cash.
Check out this auction and then post your comments.
I think David Hall should be made aware of this!!!
Check out this auction and then post your comments.
I think David Hall should be made aware of this!!!
0
Comments
The guy could get one of the snap together slab blanks and make up something that would pass muster to most people.
David
This was a hot topic a year or so ago. Man did this stir up a hornet nest
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
I have just sent a post and the link to David Halls Q&A Forum....Whether they will address it in an open forum is yet to be seen.
Only time will tell.
It is part of the reason that the POPs are so out of whack.
How are we ever going to get a handle on the POPs if peaople are selling the Cert #s instead of turning them in?
It completely destroys the concept that a slab could be bought, without being personally viewed, by a customer.
You would have to carefully examine the slab to see if it was the correct one or not, before you purchase, as the labels maybe genuine, but the slab and coin aren't.
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
<< <i>I sent BJ an email with the link and suggested that he ... >>
BJ is a LADY, my man. And I see nothing wrong with this auction. There is nothing dishonest with the auction. If someone actually uses the cert number in a phantom set, then the set registrant is being dishonest. However, there is no justification for condemning the auctioneer. You call yourselves Christians?? ( I don't know the auctioneer or have any connection or interest in the auction).
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
The man - IN THE AUCTION - is encouraging the buyer to be dishonest. How can you possibly condone that?
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
<< <i>Excuse me?
The man - IN THE AUCTION - is encouraging the buyer to be dishonest. How can you possibly condone that? >>
Thats an easy question to answer: I'm a lawyer.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>
<< <i>Excuse me?
The man - IN THE AUCTION - is encouraging the buyer to be dishonest. How can you possibly condone that? >>
Thats an easy question to answer: I'm a lawyer.
Bushmaster8, I think you need to do a reality check. As a fellow attorney, I need to do a few of those myself from time to time. I think it is troublesome for members, myself included, to think that there is a market besides PCGS (standing offer of .50) for an insert apart from the slab, and this undermines the accuracy of the population reporting system.
Even more offensive is that this particular seller is attmepting to market the insert by suggesting the insert be used as a tool to carry out a fraud. Even if the seller were to be given the benefit of the doubt initially, that is no longer the case after seeing the lengths this seller will go to to remind buyers of the improper ways the insert can be used.
Any way you look at it, this guy is advocating FRAUD!
What else can you say about this statement:
"If you want you could put this # into your PCGS set registry and it would show you had a real Georgia MS67 quarter in your set (saving you hundreds of $$$). You could even take your real Georgia MS67 out, sell it, and put this one in. Technically nothing would have changed. But I dont know who would want to do that."
This is no different than writing a book telling you how to build a bomb...and they are prosecuting people for that now, aren't they?
added last line.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>This is no different than writing a book telling you how to build a bomb... >>
I think it might be at least a little different.
Russ, NCNE
So the consensus among the lawyers here is that there is nothing wrong with this...
Well, I have read numerous posts over the last several moths, where people are complaining about the POPs.
Now, here is a prime example of why the problem exists and how it is getting worse!
As a PCGS Club Member and Registry participant, I think this person should not be allowed to participate in any PCGS functions/clubs, if he even does I guess there's always a possibility that he's ignorant and just doesn't know any better...but I don't think so, since he knew exactly what he was saying, with regard to how someone could just use the cert. no. for a Registry set. It seems like people with no morals aways come up with new ways of being immoral!
Tom Schiera
Russ, NCNE
1. I am not 100% sure inserts can even be sold. Somewhere I recall reading that the insert remains the property of PCGS? PCGS does pay $.50 for their safe return, but, the question remains whether that insert is PCGS' property.
2. PCGS requires ownership of a COIN (in one fashion or another) before one can enter it in the Registry - even a 'right" to a coin may possibly permit entering it in a Registry set (e.g. someone agrees to buy a coin for $1,000 and pays $100 down and $100 per month - can one enter it in his registry set after making the first $100 payment? What about the 6th payment?) So, anyone registering a tag without some right to a coin appears to be clearly violating the Registry rules.
Hopefully, PCGS can clarify all this - perhaps BOLD PRINT on the submission form stating that inserts remain the property of PCGS at all times? PCGS may want to check with its attorneys on the tag issue to come up with something to avoid the free sale of tags in the marketplace - or perhaps I am wrong and PCGS does not care if someone desires to sell a tag, or perhaps the submitter actually owns the insert tag at all times? Interesting issues.
Wondercoin
P.S. Another GA(p) in MS67 needs to come off the pop report!
I wish I had all my inserts from the past 10 years! After all, pop. reports ARE soooo accurate....
Hi, As a member of PCGS and The PCGS Registry, I just wanted to know what the purpose of this auction might be. Are you tying to make a point, or, are you just trying to make some money. I don't get it.
And here is his reply...
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Its the basic idea of eBay. Sell anything you don't want.
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I guess he's not trying to make a point...
Edited...some day I'll figure this stuff out.
Russ, NCNE
Everyone also knows you can enter a cert number that you don't own into the registry. By making a big deal out of it this way, you are merely giving others the idea that maybe they can get away with it.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
Deleting the cert # from the database is the easiest and surest way to thwart the conmen.
Jim
Russ and bushmaster8, I hope you've enjoyed yourselves...
Cecil, Thanks for your help.
Mitch, Ken and everyone else, thanks for your comments. I hope something good will come of this.
I'm sorry if I ruffled anyone's feathers, but I still don't think it is right!
<< <i>
Deleting the cert # from the database is the easiest and surest way to thwart the conmen.
Jim >>
Yes, now no one can use THAT number. BUT, what about all the cert numbers "available" everywhere else? What is to stop a dishonest person from going to ebay, getting the cert numbers for an entire series, entering those numbers fraudulently into the registry and reaping the benefits( free gradings)? There is no "sure way" to thwart that, save requiring Registry participants to mail their actual slabs to PCGS for verification before accepting the set as valid.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
He has told me his story, and although I do not agree with his methods, or his actions, I do understand his reasons.
As Russ had suggested, he was trying to make a point, but he failed to point that out in our initial contact.
After hearing his story, and viewing the image he sent me, I promised to post it here for all to see.
Again, I still do not agree with what he did, but I do feel he had a valid reason...But read on...
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Dear PCGS Members and Collectors Alike,
Many of you are aware that a PCGS MS67 1999-P Georgia Quarter insert was listed on eBay without the coin (#3918416428). I am the seller of this auction (brccoins). Obviously this has become a pretty controversial listing and I would like the further address it. There is more to the story than meets the eye. An MS67 1999-P Georgia quarter never at any point accompanied this cert #. Let me tell the story.
It all started when I was sending a regular submission of 1999 quarters into PCGS to be graded. 95 quarters in total to be exact. Upon completion of the grades I had 14 MS67 quarters including one PCGS MS67 1999-P Georgia Quarter. Great, right? Wrong. When the coins arrived I was disappointed to find that my "MS67 Georgia-P" contained a Pennsylvania-P Quarter (Please see the picture). Many of you know that’s a difference of about $600.00.
Like most people would be I was more than a little frustrated. I called PCGS and they were unwilling to help and were quite rude and defensive about the whole situation. All they wanted me to do was send it back at my expense so they could "fix it" by sticking a Pennsylvania label on it. I realize that some of you would have been fine with that and gone with it. But the way I see it they took me once and I wasn’t about to pay for fixing their mistake.
Now here’s how the Pennsylvania was separated from the slab.
Upon receiving my 95 coins on that submission I knew that many of them were grossly under graded. For those of you that don’t know PCGS isn’t exactly consistent with their grades. It has become a formality for me to crack open slabs and send them back unanimously for re-grading (and higher grades). I found a total of 18 of the 95 coins I thought deserved a higher grade and broke them open with a hammer as usual. All MS66’s or lower. Back to Newport Beach they went.
I was planning on selling the mix-up coin just as it was. But after I broke these 18 coins open realized that the MS67 Georgia-Pennsylvania mistake was one of them. I didn’t mean to crack this one open. Thus I had just the Insert. I wanted to send PCGS a message with this auction. The MS67 Georgia never existed and that was all PCGS gave me so I was going to sell it for what it was. PCGS, not me made a "ghost" MS67 Georgia. You can take one off of the pop.
Of the 18 coins I sent back (all MS66 or lower) 2 of them came back as MS67’s (SUB # 3143237). A MS67 Delaware-D and Georgia-P. I got my Georgia MS67. One can make pretty good money off of sending MS66’s and lower back to the grading room. It’s the sad truth. I realize they’re only human but they grade our coins so arbitrarily it’s not even funny. I’ve turned MS64’s into MS67’s. I’ve got my complete set of State Quarters in MS67’s and MS68’s only. But not one is in a PCGS slab. And I consider it the finest known…
So why not sell just an insert!!!???
I am not trying to discourage anyone from buying PCGS graded coins. I sell them. It’s about the only way to market high-end state quarters and turn it into a lucrative business. There is a degree of accuracy in the modern coins, but I firmly believe they pay more attention to older and more expensive dates. I have been a member of PCGS going on 4 years now. Since I was 16 years old (yes I’m only 20). And I have seen just about everything but the company’s stock go down in value. Turnaround times have become a joke. Its common knowledge that when demand rises in a business you hire more employees to compensate. In this case graders.
For those of you I offended I sincerely apologize. I ended the auction at BJ’s request and no more Inserts will be listed on eBay. I have over 500 unique positive feedback on eBay (99.86%) and have done business with many of you. I’m just giving you all something to think about...
Happy coin collecting! -Brian Childs
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I think im gonna have a heartattack, first thing Steve has posted in years I agree with!
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
If you have to write a paragraph or more to make a justification, or it is the letter of the law instead of the intent of the law, it just doesn't sit right with me.
If you are angry with someone or a company, and feel you need to get back and get your satisfaction in an intended "I'll show you" manner, then the proposed answer is just as wrong as the original wrong.
Real interesting to see the weasel wording of answers and the side of the fence folks lined up on.
Dick
Russ, NCNE