Copper impurities vs. spots, and their grading (1894 S1 RPDs)

shylock

An interesting quirk of fate: during the short run of the Mint's 1894/1894 Indian cent obverse die, they used perhaps the worst batch of copper in the entire series. It looks to me like some impurity created the spots in the planchets, not active carbon, and I'd bet they looked close to this when they left the Mint. The question is: did PCGS get it right when they graded all of these 65RD?

(These were imaged by 3 different sources, so assume the color is original on all.)

airplanenut

If your theory holds that the coins left the mint with the spots, then yes, they should be grade MS65--technically, if they left the mint that way and had no marks, they could be graded 70.

Jeremy

toothpuller

Interesting theory. Did you by any chance bring it up to Rick Snow? PCGS has certainly been stingy with the 66s with a pop of only 1.

coinguy1

<< <i>...technically, if they left the mint that way and had no marks, they could be graded 70 >>

Jeremy, I will respectfully disagree. I believe that a coin can be "as struck" but still not deserve a perfect grade. Mint-made imperfections such as weak strike, severe adjustment marks, etc. often cause the major grading companies to lower the grade of a coin, sometimes significantly.

Paul, while those imperfections are distracting and I'd prefer they not be present, they, alone, do not preclude MS65 grades in my opinion.

shylock

Tooth - Carbon spots are usually round, starting with a spec and growing (or grew, if inert) outward symmetrically. They also have some depth. The spots on these coins are irregular and look like they're flush with the coin. A spot is a spot, but I'd feel a lot safer purchasing a copper if I knew it was inert, part of the coin since its creation.

airplanenut

Thanks for being respectful, Mark

When I said technically, I really meant technically--there could always be someone who found them to be original, thus, somehow eye-appealing. Of course, it's clear that few people think that way, and for that reason alone, the coin would probably be, as you said, taken down--if not for a mint-made impairment, but for a deduction in eye appeal.

Jeremy

Lakesammman

Shylock:

Interesting observation, to say the least. All the red 1894 RPD's I've seen look that way, with angular spots instead of round. It didn't dawn on me why until you posted this thread......very interesting!

Here's a link to the lone 66R on Shylocks. One of the few that is relatively spot free, though not completely so.

Link to MS66R on Shylocks site

shylock

You don't truly appreciate the 66RD that Lakes linked until you've looked at all the other high grades. It's by far the cleanest survivor, but still not your typical 66RD.

So much about this series remains a mystery because no one paid any attention to them until recently. The 1873 Doubled Liberty wasn't written about until 1958, so forget about finding hard facts about this variety. And unless someone is willing to sacrifice a 10K coin to be sliced up and analyzed for its metal content, conjecture is all we're left with. The way PCGS grades these on a curve tells me they recognize some innate problem with how 1894 S1's were minted. If they didn't look like this when they left the Mint, perhaps the impurities in the bronze toned brown shortly thereafter, no matter how well they were cared for. And all these examples obviously were.

merz2

Don't you guys know David Hall says there is only one true "RED" color for copper coins,and he and all his graders know what that is.
The alloy content or impurities play no part in color.