Counterfeit PCGS First Gen slab on eBay!

kieferscoins

very cool!

I've never seen one for sale and will watch this with anticipation. Anyone else seen one for sale in the last few years? I wonder how many were made and made right by PCGS after they found out they were on the market.

Cameron Kiefer

coinguy89

Are you saying the slab is fake, the coin, or both?

JrGMan2004

Cool!

kieferscoins

The coin is real but the slab is a fake PCGS one. Read the thread he linked in his auction.

Cameron Kiefer

MICHAELDIXON

I wouldn't be buying the slab as a counterfeit. The certification number comes back as an MS65 Saint. This auction looks like a scam to me. PCGS should be alerted to this auction.

JrGMan2004

Cert number could have been taken for a real slab...

XpipedreamR

Just kidding, Cameron

kieferscoins

Mike, Its a fake slab and conder101 even said it was. They used certs from real coins and made their own slabs.

Cameron Kiefer

Russ

<< <i>Cert number could have been taken for a real slab... >>



From what I understand, that's exactly what the counterfeiter did.

Russ, NCNE

partagas

Mr. Dixon,

I really don't care for your accusations that I am offering phony phony. LOL . Sorry couldn't resist. I have placed my belief in some slab experts that it is indeed a counterfeit slab. I am offering a 3 day return, how many scams offer that?

If you have doubts then please pass on my auction. Good day.

Russ

partagas,

Have any with 1964 Kennedys in them?

Russ, NCNE

jeffnpcb

My only concern is the coin itself! Why would anyone pass off a counterfeit slab with a real coin in it? So the main question is the coin, grade and value opposed to a piece of plastic with some numbers on it. Are you standing behind the coin or the plastic because PCGS has no obligation to do such!

Russ

<< <i>Why would anyone pass off a counterfeit slab with a real coin in it? >>



I believe this was happening during the "investment craze" runup in certified coins. If that's the case, it would be very profitable even using real coins.

Russ, NCNE

tjkillian

<< <i> because PCGS has no obligation to do such! >>



Actually, PCGS DOES stand behind the counterfeit ones, now that is marketing for you. They did it to protect their name.

Tom

RGL

"Old Green Holder" Yes, I do prefer my counterfeit slabs to be in rattlers ... they are much better quality and likely to upgrade.

Dave99B

It's my understanding that real coins were placed in the slabs, but they were a grade or two lower than the slab label, thereby inflating the value several times over.

Dave

razorface1027

Call me ignorant if you'd like but...What's extremely RARE about this specimen?

prooflike

Probably because it is a 64 Saint in a 65 holder... a little bit of a price difference.

why not a 66 holder? the idea is not getting caught.

Russ

<< <i>What's extremely RARE about this specimen? >>



How many counterfeit PCGS slabs have you ever seen for sale? Most were pulled off the market by PCGS when the deception was discovered. For the collector of slabs, this puppy is right near the top of desirable examples.

Russ, NCNE

razorface1027

How many counterfeit PCGS slabs have you ever seen for sale? Most were pulled off the market by PCGS when the deception was discovered. For the collector of slabs, this puppy is right near the top of desirable examples.

I was speaking of the coin. In his/her description, the way it's written, expresses to me that they're speaking about the coin being an "Extreme rarity." Dunno, maybe I'm reading it incorrectly.

jeffnpcb

My concern is also the coin! Will PCGS stand behind the grade as well as the coin?

partagas

WOW, PCGS has sent me an email wanting to kill the auction. They want to buy it from me at my cost? I will do the right thing and end the auction on it. I fully understand there position. They are a good enough company to stand behind there products, and want to be fair.

I feel for you sample guys, losing another rare specimen. This is like owning a 33 double eagle. It isn't legal to own and the mint has asked you to return it. Any thoughts on what I should do. I didn't want to misrepresent what I was selling, I was simply trying to give this rare variety to a collector whom would enjoy it. Please post or pm me your thoughts.

MICHAELDIXON

This auction was inappropriate. When you want to sell an item like this, it needs to be done in a private party arrangement. The problem with the slab/coin is not who buys it from you, but what they do with it afterwards. It would probably go to some of the boiler room operations who would then sell it to some unsuspecting "investor" who would get burned. I'm glad to see Mike Sherman took action on it!

kieferscoins

<< <i>I feel for you sample guys, losing another rare specimen. >>



No you don't or you wouldn't have ended the auction early. It's legal to own and you can do what you want with it. PCGS just asked you to end it and didn't tell you too. I'm happy though you got your money out of it though and didn't get bruned.

Its not a sample slab but a slab most slab collectors want.

Cameron Kiefer

partagas

Cameron,

The email spelled out very clearly if I didn't end the auction they would end it for me. I don't want to make waves, but I will gladly send you the email.

It is a violation of there trade mark.

I respect that and have no problem with it.

I was willing to sell the item, for x and they agreed to pay x. So I didn't get a premium. I can't control what they will do with it after it done. But I think we know it will be destroyed.

pontiacinf

Dear Partagas

Itll be a long cold day in hell before you could even garner the respect mr. Dixon has amongst many of us on this board. having said that I bid you adue and yes, I will gladly steer clear of any of your future auctions.

No loss to you, but DEFFINATELY NO LOSS TO ME.

MSherman

My thanks to Partagas for doing the right thing. Our issue was not with anything he did, but what the next seller might do.
Our goal is to ensure that all PCGS coins on the market are legit.

JadeRareCoin

Mr. Sherman,

Thanks for posting. Would it be acceptable to have PCGS remove the coin from the slab with minimal damage to the holder, then return the slab to partagas? The reason that I ask is that it is a collectible item that someone like Cameron would be happy to own. Or are you concerned that someone like Cameron would put another coin in the holder and glue it shut? Cameron is a shady character. Maybe you could deface the slab in a certain way that it cannot be used again, yet it's still recognizable for what it is. It's a piece of history, in a wierd, plastic kind of way.

MadMarty

Maybe PCGS can slab the slab!

Conder101

(Edited to say this was NOT a blank post. PCGS took offense and deleted it.)

MSherman

I can't promise what HRH will order, but I will lobby to preserve it in our counterfeit set (which we occasionally display).
I don't think even we own one of these things. After having cost us around a million bucks fifteen years ago, I think we wanted to destroy
every piece of that sordid affair we could get our hands on.
Time heals most wounds though, so I think we can throw this one in our "museum." Will that work?

JadeRareCoin

After having cost us around a million bucks fifteen years ago, I think we wanted to destroy

Sell it to Conder101 for $1,000,000 and then you will be even.

Barry

Mike,
I like that Chain Cent!

Conder101

Jade I am sure that if PCGS gets their hands on that slab there is no way they will let it get back out even if it was pounded into little pieces. And I can't afford $1,000,000 to get them even.

MichaelDixon,

I can understand your feeling on this, I hope you can understand mine. I see this slab as a tangible piece of history. A history that naturally PCGS wishes had never happened and which they would like to rub out by removing and probably destroying every one they can get their hands on. But much history is offensive or disturbing to someone and many people who are disturbed or offended do usually desire to see the artifacts of that event destroyed. But coler heads understand that it can be better to collect these items and preserve the history so it isn't forgotten. As coin collectors we should all understand this. Coins tell the stories of countries, their economic good and bad times, of government corruption, and of how they treated their citizens. This slab tells a part of the history of third party grading, a part that hurt one of the companies but history none the less. The story it tells is both good and bad. How it damaged the company and threatened to hurt collectors who had put their trust in the holder, and how that company stepped forward and greatly enhanced their reputation by buying back all the counterfeit slabs. Then how the event lead to changes to enhance the security of the slabs and actually increase the collectors confidence. There are not many of these slabs still surviving, and I just don't think they should all be destroyed. There are some of us who do want to preserve them and their story.

kieferscoins

<< <i>Time heals most wounds though, so I think we can throw this one in our "museum." Will that work? >>



very cool! It's about time. This is slab history and I'd rather see it every now and again on display than smashed in some trash bin.

Cameron Kiefer

JrGMan2004

Pontiac... I think you are severely misguided that you will shun someone, because they defended themselves when accused of wrong doing by a "well-respected" person on this forum. Yes, Michael's second post had a good point that the sale probally should have been handled in a different manner. But his first post was an accusation based on incomplete knowledge.
MichaelDixon:
<< I wouldn't be buying the slab as a counterfeit. The certification number comes back as an MS65 Saint. This auction looks like a scam to me. PCGS should be alerted to this auction. >>

And others confirmed the same as I had, that the cert number from a real slab was probally used. And then the seller defended himself, and didn't appreciate the accusations. And it was definately in a joking manner. Notice the LOL and the winky... but then you, pontiacinf wrote this:

<< Dear Partagas

Itll be a long cold day in hell before you could even garner the respect mr. Dixon has amongst many of us on this board. having said that I bid you adue and yes, I will gladly steer clear of any of your future auctions.

No loss to you, but DEFFINATELY NO LOSS TO ME. >>

And it's like.... What the hell?! Just because Dixon is well respected and attacked a guy, and that guy defended himself, and stated he didn't appreciate being accused, you won't do business with him? EXCUSE ME! I respect Dixon as well for what he has done and what he knows, but your reasoning here seems to me to be quite illogical and flawed. Boggles my mind to think that you'll exile someone, just because they defend themselves from attacks and accusations.

And conder: I quite agree with you. This is probally just like to you, if PCGS sent Cameron an E-Mail to turn in every Sample Slab to be destroyed, or for the US Mint to demand the 1913 V Nickels, or any other rarity, all be returned to be melted down.

Russ

<< <i>Maybe you could deface the slab in a certain way that it cannot be used again >>



It would seem to me that any engraving service could attractively etch the word "counterfeit" in to the plastic in a manner that would make it permanent and impossible to remove. That way it can be preserved for posterity without concern.

Russ, NCNE

nankraut

Hey, lighten up, guys... BTW, I like Russ' idea.

roadrunner

I got a kick out of the auction offering a full refund if the coin were returned in it's original "untampered with" holder.

As fas as I can recall I thought that the counterfeiters were unsealing PCGS slabs and inserting their own inserts. The inserts they made had different serifs on the lettering. It's the inserts that would be collectible.

Funny thing, that with gradeflation, that MS63+ or MS64 coin from 1988, is possibly now a 65 by today's standards....hence no one gets burned! That would be true IRONY.

roadrunner

CoinHunter2003

Poor little ol' me. I don't know what the fuss was with our "Master Collectors". After all the counterfeit
crap I've bought off of Ebay what's the big deal. The seller was honest about the slab. Okay & PCGS
gets the slab out of circulation. No harm no foul in my opinion. I'll buy from an honest seller anyday.

Alex

Just a simple little Morgan collector.

Conder101

<< <i>I thought that the counterfeiters were unsealing PCGS slabs and inserting their own inserts. >>


No, the shells were fake a well. There are distinctive differences in the injection port sites as well (from the molding process) but they do not photograph well. The labels are a much easier way to spot the fakes.

291fifth

Even 15 years after the fact these counterfeit slabs are still causing consternation. I have to agree with PCGS on this. However many or few of these counterfeit slabs there are out there, they still have the ability to do harm to the hobby.