Increase interest in vintage items?

TCC

I think this may have been "lost" in the Babe Ruth 1/1 thread, so I wanted to start another topic to discuss this...

I was curious as to what some of you think should be done to increase interest in vintage cards and memorabilia?

When you look around the various hobby sites, the emphasis is on modern with little attention to vintage. Plus, the use of the Internet (especially eBay) has increasingly reduced the role of the card shop and shows where many collectors would have first been exposed to vintage items. Then, you have the lack of hobby publications covering this area, especially with the recent loss of the Beckett guide in this area.

Where do we head to let newer collectors know about this entire "other area" of the hobby? What are some of the resources each of you use now?

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

-Bob

magellan

Good question Bob and welcome to the forum. There are some online resources such as Network 54 and Old Baseball Cards available . One forum where modern collecters and kids are still exposed to vintage is card shows, but I know there aren't as many around as there were 10 years ago. Hopefully as some of the kids get older their original interest in (modern) cards expands to include vintage cards.

Dave

ChrisStufflestreet

I'll finally start posting to this board with this topic. I have been a long-time reader but have neglected responding because I'm not what you'd call a "PSA guy."

My name is Chris Stufflestreet and I have been active in the hobby for a long time, specializing in vintage stuff. I was once a seller at weekend shows, but have given up profiting for now to help the hobby through my vintage cards website. I have written a book on the hobby's history and write a newsletter. Many of you have seen my site before, and I know I've seen my name listed in these forums a couple of times in the past.

Vintage Baseball Cards 1888-1959

I also keep an online archive of my past newsletter articles. Warning: make sure you have a lot of spare time before wading in...

Newsletter archive

That said, I am happy to discuss vintage cards with anybody on this forum. Magellan metioned the Old Baseball Cards website. I am a member of OBC and many of my pages are linked from their site. I have long been concerned about the lagging attention given to vintage cards. Beckett Vintage is now a part of history, but there are several sites like mine if you look for them. Another one worth mentioning here is Old Cardboard.

Card sellers have told me that while vintage collectors are often hardcore, they see vintage material sitting forever on their shelves. While I notice that some of these sellers aren't often flexible on their stated BV for raw material, I see that as well. I remember the "old days" where every table at a card show had at least some vintage, it bothers me to see one of the following two scenarios played out whenever I ask to see "old stuff:"

1. The seller assumes 1986 to be "old" when you're looking for 1950s cards.
2. The seller needs to go to the back of the store to locate his vintage stuff and then has to stick his nose deep into the latest Beckett to either identify them or give a price.

My biggest concern is the fact that there are several sellers out there who take advantage of the low attention given to vintage by preying upon newer collectors and selling bogus stuff they claim to be real but aren't. I do fault the buyers a little -- you don't buy a house or new car without doing your homework, and the same should go for expensive collectibles -- but these sellers should be shown for what they are.

achtey

I really hope that the people that are collecting newer stuff take time to consider vintage. I don't have alot of money to buy them all the time but I do LOVE vintage. The newer stuff is so mass produced, there are way too many brands for people to choose from. I think they'll come around, you just have to give it time. I'm 22, so, there will be someone around for awhile to enjoy them.


Josh

Griffins

About time you showed up here Chris! Welcome to the boards.

I think ebay and boards like this one and Net 54 have done more to promote vintage collecting than anything else, and will continue to do so. The biggest frustration for any collector is not being able to find the cards you need- in the old days (the mid 70's when I collected before a 20 year hiatus) the best you could do was run an ad in The Trader Speaks, SCN or SCD and hover over the mail box. I know a lot of people that dropped out just because they couldn't find what they were looking for at any price. Now you can search ebay and find 6 examples of a card that would take you months or years to find just 1. Judging by the cost of cards I'm looking for interest in vintage issues is increasing- if not the prices would be dropping.
The other big frustration that turns people off is fraud. When was the last time one of those magazines called out someone for selling worthless junk? Other than VCBC in the Dennis Purdy days I can't recall ever. Too worried about ad revenue. But you often get that kind of info here, and the Net 54 board is mostly comprised of it. I can name a few posters on 54 that have probably saved more people getting burned by PRO, NASA, AAA, etc than all the magazines put together.
So Beckett Vintage folded, so what? I think that is more indicative of print media and the fact that that particular magazine was out of touch with the direction the hobby is going. I can't imagine SCD is far behind.
The best thing one can do to promote vintage collecting is share knowledge and resources- an informed collector is an avid collector. Chris Stufflestreets newsletter and book (thanks again for the one you sent me a few weeks ago), this board, Net 54 board,Old Cardboards new site, Mastro, RE and other auction catalogs, VCBC and several books should all be mandatory reading for everyone putting any serious time and money into a collection- and sharing this among other collectors makes it all a lot more fun.

Tipem

I am not too bothered by the fact that people are not more interested in vintage as that keeps the prices fairly reasonable and that is a definate plus for those of us that are collecting vintage.I think that there will be a renewed interest in vintage in a few years that will drive the prices up considerably,I would say that the economy has to do with it in part as disposable income is not as available as it was during the last baseball card craze.Eventually,this 1/1 chase will play out as people cannot sell their 1/1's for the amount that they invested in them.High grade vintage supply will dry up and that will be the point when we see prices really take off.After all,for a lot of people these days,it's all about investing and the dollar.While I collect for the enjoyment as well as the nostalgia,I do keep an eye on the dollar aspect as well.



Vic

ChrisStufflestreet

Tipem brings up an interesting point, and it's a part of the history of the hobby.

The first big surge in the organized hobby happened when Topps began issuing its sets at one time instead of in series. From 1974 on, the hobby stores began to slowly show up (and many hobby sellers simply worked out of their own garages or dens). This activity came to a head in 1980, when three '52 Mantles sold for $3000 each at the Philly Sports and Memorabilia show (now held at Ft. Washington). There was a flurry of hobby activity when Fleer and Donruss entered the market in '81, but by the end of '82 the values had fallen. The '52T Mantle had dropped to an $800 value and high-demand cards ('53 Mays, '54 Aaron) were selling for fractions of their 1980 values.

The economy of 1981-82 was pretty lousy, and that affected the card hobby. Once the Reagan tax cuts kicked in and the economy was running on all cylinders by the '84 season, the 80s "card boom" was about to hit high gear. But one of the lessons left out by the historians is the fact that in '84 Fleer and Donruss made their cards better (the '81-'83 sets were often panned by collectors for being overproduced, the poor quality of printing and cardboard stock) and finally gave collectors a better choice than the predictible sets Topps was offering.

Today we have a lot of quality, but the chase cards and improvements have essentially priced themselves out of the budget of most young collectors. An 11 year old kid is going to have a hard time convincing his father to shell out $3-5 or more for a pack of 6-10 cards when that father remembers cards selling 15 to a 40 cent pack in the mid-80s. The Baby Boomers drove the market for cards for a generation, but who's going to fill their shoes for the future?

Just a thought.

Stone193

<< <i> I can't imagine SCD is far behind. >>


Griff
We've talked about this before - some of the 'mainstay' publications appear to be in financial straits. A reflection on the hobby and the vintage market? Hard to really tell. I think ebay is killing these publications as more advertisers jump over to a more affordable venue.
I think the card companies are doing their part to incite interest in the vintage market. I will say, the 'chop' bat - 'sliced and diced' jersey cards have had their share of controvery and have piqued the interests of the purists. But still, this does incite the imagination of the young to at least ponder and realize that Mickey Mantle was not a Disney character.
IMO, the card manufacturers along with their respective sports may hold the key to keeping the heritage alive and stimulate a diversity of collecting interests (modern & vintage) in the newcomers.
Of couse mom and dad's influence can't hurt.

A hearty welcome to TCC and Chris - your addition to the boards only makes us a better community.
Happy Dad's Day to All!
Mike

edit:

<< <i>I collect for the enjoyment as well as the nostalgia,I do keep an eye on the dollar aspect as well. >>


Tipem
That is an extremely healthy approach to collecting which I share with you! Aint it great!

murcerfan

jrdolan

When the 2004 card of a prospect who hasn't played a day in the majors (take your pick) sells for more than a PSA 8 rookie card of a HOFer, and players these days have more different rookie cards than HOFers had total cards for their entire careers, it's easy to remind yourself that vintage is not the wrong place to be.

Have fun with the modern stuff, yes, even try to make a little money short-term (and don't be surprised if you can't). But remember that all those gem mint rookie cards of today will still be in their PSA 10 holders 50 years from now. That was not true of cards that came out in yesteryear. Kids of today will appreciate history more as they mature. The stuff I collect now, I never saw most of those guys play. But I love the legends and stories, and I know it was very hard for a 1950s card to make it this far in top condition. Even more so for pre-war material.

Regardless of what silliness the market generates on old vs. new, I'm content that vintage is a good place to be for my personal collecting. If Albert Pujols' 17 different (expensive) rookie cards means I can get nice HOF cards for very reasonable money, I am all for modern!

ChrisStufflestreet

[One of my concearns are web-sites that offer valuable info on vintage cards ( a place a newbie might go for the kind of research you mention), and lo and behold some of the images feature the very same reprints that dealers are supposedly pawning off as authentic.

reprints

.......I like your site, but that sure looks like a reprint. >>




Murcerfan, it may be. That card's image was given to me by another collector who said it was from his own collection, and I cleaned it up with Paint Shop Pro. However, I'm not selling the card (and tell anybody who emails me that I don't sell the cards I feature on my site), and I try really hard to keep the dollar sign away from those set descriptions to avoid seeming like I use my claims of scarcity to help sell cards to novice collectors.

If you have a better scan, I'll be happy to use it instead.

ctsoxfan

I also echo the words of welcome to TCC and Chris. Good posts on this topic also Chris.

I tend to collect with an eye towards "recent vintage", by that I mean the cards of my youth (1970-1980). The older HOF's are nice to have, but honestly, Mantle et al just don't carry the same significance for me as they do with a slightly older generation. It basically stems from that, though I like jrdolan's point about today's cards being much better preserved than any pre-grading era cards ever will be. That should ensure a strong market for vintage cards for years to come, but without the excitement of collecting something (or someone) you remember, what good is it?

murcerfan

didn't mean to crusade on you......well not really.

as a side note, it would be an intereting idea to add to the description of the various sets with high resolution unaltered images of the real mcCoy. images of, the nuances that one ought to look for and which sets have been reprinted (almost every vintage set) and which reprint are hard to descearn. It would be a ton of work, but invaluable to the newbies....maybe PSA would sponsor you with some of the proceeds from the Great American Grading Guess-off. have e-mailed you a few images and link to some sets you might consider adding, if that is a goal.

Tipem

I would also like to echo the sebtiments expressed here previously.


TCC and Chris,

Welcome to the boards !!!! Good Post !!!! You both are going to provide welcome insights and valuable information to these boards.


Vic

TCC

<< <i>
The best thing one can do to promote vintage collecting is share knowledge and resources- an informed collector is an avid collector. Chris Stufflestreets newsletter and book (thanks again for the one you sent me a few weeks ago), this board, Net 54 board,Old Cardboards new site, Mastro, RE and other auction catalogs, VCBC and several books should all be mandatory reading for everyone putting any serious time and money into a collection- and sharing this among other collectors makes it all a lot more fun. >>



Agreed that these are some of the best ways. Can you share the "several books" that "should all be mandatory reading"?

-Bob

TCC

<< <i>I am not too bothered by the fact that people are not more interested in vintage as that keeps the prices fairly reasonable and that is a definate plus for those of us that are collecting vintage. >>



Interesting take.

Lack of interest may be beneficial to today's vintage collectors, but it's important to be "developing" another generation of collectors that are interested in vintage items. Although, I guess that depends somewhat on your reasons for collecting. If you're only doing it for personal enjoyment, then the monetary value - both now and in the future - of the items is not that important. If you're doing it for both personal enjoyment and as an "investment", then it is in your best interest to - at some point - see a new group of collectors willing to spend money on these items.

-Bob

Griffins

Here's a few previous threads on the subject

Collecting Books
thread 2

TCC

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. Chris, good to see you join the "active posters" as well.

Between the various web sites that were referenced in your posts and the book threads provided by Griffins (thanks), I've got plenty of things to look around at this week.

Looking forward to plenty of discussions with all of you.

-Bob

fsjeter

TCC and ChrisStufflestreet, welcome to the boards! I too like to concentrate on vintage. I agree that the card companies have done their part. Especially Topps with the Heritage, Fan Favorites, T-206, T-205, and Cracker Jack lines. Upperdeck has tried with their first Playball line but their new Playball line is nothing but modern IMO. Believe it or not, I think the surge in popularity of Mitchell & Ness and "throwback jerseys" has sparked an interest as well. One observation, I have a 14 year old son and he doesn't want much to do with vintage because he doesn't know any of the players. I mean, he's seen highlights but it's not the same as seeing the players on a regular basis. If I had an Allen Iverson GU Jersey or a Dr. J RC and told him to piuck one, Iverson would win, hands down!

ChrisStufflestreet, is there any reason you stop at 1959. Just curious because I collect mostly '60's cards.

achtey, can you define "mass produced." I agree that the late '80's and early '90's cards are mass produced but the mid to late '90's are the exact opposite. Serial numbered and short printed cards are now the norm (grossly underproduced and way overpriced). Just my $0.02.

Scott

ChrisStufflestreet

While we're on the subject of books, Here's a few to look for:

"The Complete Book of Baseball Cards" by Steve Clark, 1976 - Written before the Boom years, this book has a lot of great info about the early days of the hobby, back when card shows were called "conventions" and there was very little focus on money.

"Collector's Guide to Baseball cards" by Troy Kirk, 1990 - very informative book, well written.

"Card Sharks" by Pete Williams was mentioned elsewhere in this thread. I own it and enjoyed it. One of its subjects (Adrian Gluck, former UD board member) told me in an email that "not all of it is accurate" but didn't elaborate. After reading the book several months later (2002) and wanting to know more, his email address was no longer valid.

Also mentioned was "The Great American Baseball Card Flipping, Trading and Bubble Gum Book" by Brendan Boyd and Fred Harris. I wrote a review of the book last year. It's worth searching out...I bought mine in a used bookstore for $3 and have read it dozens of times.

Finally, I must toss another link out from my site:

List of Recommended Books

The list isn't as complete as I'd like because most of the good books are out of print. But the first book listed will have a familiar name for the author. It has an email link if you're interested...mention this forum and I'll give a discount.

ChrisStufflestreet

I just realized that I missed the most helpful book I've ever found...

"The American Premium Guide to Baseball Cards" by Ron Erbe, 1981. It looks much like the SCD and Beckett "big books" but is packed with great info, including what I've often considered the best reference of 19th century tobacco cards I've ever read. It also covers matchbook covers and other stuff that isn't included in the larger books anymore.

That book was in my middle school library and I checked it out for most of the three years I spent there. It is the one book that has built the foundation for my knowledge of vintage material. The last time I read it was in 1986, but much of it is still imprinted in my brain from repeated readings. It's an elusive book, too. I think one is available on Amazon for $190, but I'm still looking to see if I can get one for a lot less.

I hope to one day add that great reference to my hobby bookshelf.

ChrisStufflestreet

ChrisStufflestreet, is there any reason you stop at 1959. Just curious because I collect mostly '60's cards.


The reason is simple...I haven't yet added 1960s cards to the site. I started building the site in 2000 with 1950s Topps and Bowman sets, and then tried to fill in the major sets issued before then. With the checklists, it's easier to hit older sets because they have fewer cards, and the Topps sets take a long time to write out and format. I am not done with the site yet, so look for the 1960 Topps set to show up sometime this summer, with '60 Fleer to follow.

Not sure yet when I'm going to stop...Maybe '73 because of the fact that Topps stopped doing series...Maybe '80 because OBC considers that the cutoff point...but I'm going to get more stuff up when I can.

ChrisStufflestreet

ChrisStufflestreet, is there any reason you stop at 1959. Just curious because I collect mostly '60's cards.


The reason is simple...I haven't yet added 1960s cards to the site. I started building the site in 2000 with 1950s Topps and Bowman sets, and then tried to fill in the major sets issued before then. With the checklists, it's easier to hit older sets because they have fewer cards, and the Topps sets take a long time to write out and format. I am not done with the site yet, so look for the 1960 Topps set to show up sometime this summer, with '60 Fleer to follow.

Not sure yet when I'm going to stop...Maybe '73 because of the fact that Topps stopped doing series...Maybe '80 because OBC considers that the cutoff point...but I'm going to get more stuff up when I can.

AlanAllen

Great thread! I think the resources are out there for vintage baseball if you look, they're just not as "in your face" as modern. But, what is out there for vintage football? I subscribe to Gridiron Greats which is a superb resource, but they of course can't cover every set. The Beckett annual is seriously lacking, and the SCD big book is a joke. At least Bob Lemke tries with the baseball book. So, is there something out there I'm missing that doesn't treat football as an afterthought (if at all)?

Joe

ChrisStufflestreet

<< <i>Great thread! I think the resources are out there for vintage baseball if you look, they're just not as "in your face" as modern. But, what is out there for vintage football?


If I may...my OTHER website is in the design stage.

Vintage Football Cards

There aren't any images yet, and the sets will be slow in coming, but I hope to help fix that problem about vintage football cards as much as I have with baseball.

TCC

<< <i>I just realized that I missed the most helpful book I've ever found...

"The American Premium Guide to Baseball Cards" by Ron Erbe, 1981. It looks much like the SCD and Beckett "big books" but is packed with great info, including what I've often considered the best reference of 19th century tobacco cards I've ever read. It also covers matchbook covers and other stuff that isn't included in the larger books anymore.

That book was in my middle school library and I checked it out for most of the three years I spent there. It is the one book that has built the foundation for my knowledge of vintage material. The last time I read it was in 1986, but much of it is still imprinted in my brain from repeated readings. It's an elusive book, too. I think one is available on Amazon for $190, but I'm still looking to see if I can get one for a lot less.

I hope to one day add that great reference to my hobby bookshelf. >>




Chris,

There are about 6 of these on Amazon right now and it looks like the prices are only between $10-$20. I believe they are all of the same book you're mentioning here.

-Bob

AlanAllen

<< <i>Great thread! I think the resources are out there for vintage baseball if you look, they're just not as "in your face" as modern. But, what is out there for vintage football?


If I may...my OTHER website is in the design stage.

Vintage Football Cards

There aren't any images yet, and the sets will be slow in coming, but I hope to help fix that problem about vintage football cards as much as I have with baseball. >>


Great! I perused a couple of sets and I like your presentation and information. I hope that you reach back to pre-war football sets also, as these are the least documented and information is tough to come by. If you haven't yet, check out the football card gallery, hosted by a board member. Good stuff.

Joe